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• gudbuy t’jane is a woman. do you use gender neutral pronouns for any other women around here?

  and why the quotes around transmisogynistic? if i called fox news homophobic would you put that in scare quotes?

  estrobutch ∼ March 17th, 2010 12:40 pm

• Hi estrobutch,

  In reply, most of the self-identifying trans men and trans women I know prefer gender neutral pronouns, so this was a judgement call in my case.

  Secondly, as I am quoting gudbuy t’jane here, I have used quotation marks (although her sentence was “This is transmisogyny”). To refer to these as scare quotes is misleading as this style is common. I could have opened with, ‘Sandy Rios says that Lady Gaga’s video is “poison”.’ for example. Or end with, ‘Lesbilicious reader estrobutch concluded that FOX News’ coverage was “homophobic”.

  Thanks,
  Siobhan - author

  Siobhan ∼ March 17th, 2010 4:00 pm

• Hi Siobhan, just thought I’d point out that the Q cover of Lady Gaga actually had her topless, but also posing with a dildo underneath her trousers. In fact, practically the whole article is about the fact she wanted to pose with a dildo.

  I find the video could have been great, if it weren’t for the moments when it seems like hideous attention grabbing for the sake of being ‘edgy’ (to the detriment of other people’s identities).

  Liz ∼ March 17th, 2010 9:02 pm

• Hi Siobhan,
  You realize how thats not ok right? If you know men and women who prefer gnp’s and they happen to be trans, it doesn’t mean they like them because they’re trans. I prefer gnp’s and I’m trans but thats not the reason I prefer them. Its because I’m butch female id’d but not woman-id’d and has nothing to do with being trans or not.

  I’m not gonna tell you you should assume ppl’s pronouns when you don’t know them but you should change your thought process around it from “the trans ppl I know represent all trans ppl.” Consider the women or man part of the identities of binary id’d ppl you meet the same regardless if there cis or trans. Make sense?

  estrobutch ∼ March 18th, 2010 12:37 pm

• The style is common when you’re trying to seem neutral.

  tinyrevolution ∼ March 18th, 2010 8:32 pm

• Hi estrobutch,

  Actually, that does not make sense to me. I believe it projects onto others an inability to define themselves beyond binary genders. It presumes that “trans woman” cannot be seen as a whole, indivisible gender identity which lies beyond a man/woman binary. Yet it is, in fact, understood by many people to constitute a separate gender identity. I’m not assuming the trans people I know represent all trans people, but am rather respecting their various and nuanced perspectives to realise:

  I cannot presume to know which pronouns gudbuy t’jane would use. What I can do, is choose to use an all-gender inclusive option, rather than a gender-specific one, and avoid presumptuous categorisation. To me, that is very okay.

  S

  Siobhan ∼ March 19th, 2010 1:01 am

• @Siobahn - And yet you refer to Gaga as “she”. I would say to either refer to all as genderless, or treat transpeople as you would cispeople unless directed otherwise. My $0.02 is that I don’t know a single transwoman who considers herself “beyond men and women”, and I personally would take it as insult, as though you were avoiding having to recognize me as a woman

  Eth ∼ March 19th, 2010 9:48 am

• No. Your projecting onto trans ppl an inability to define themselves as binary genders. What your doing is ungendering binary id’d trans ppl and its wrong.

  And its just as wrong to assume a non-binary gender for someone as it is to assume a binary one. keep in mind your speaking to someone who is non-binary and trans. I know what i’m talking about.

  Your the only one who is presuming genders here.

  “It presumes that “trans woman” cannot be seen as a whole, indivisible gender identity which lies beyond a man/woman binary. Yet it is, in fact, understood by many people to constitute a separate gender identity”

  This is just wrong. Your trying to put certain women into a gender ghetto because their trans. A woman’s gender is just as binary whether she’s cis or trans unless she says otherwise. Your forcing your own ideas on other ppls identities and its transphobic. your not helping ppl like me by trying to force a non-binary framework on binary trans ppl.

  estrobutch ∼ March 19th, 2010 12:13 pm

• Hi Est,

  I presume to know what pronouns Gaga, and Megyn Kelly, use because - as you say - I have been directed. Actually, in my first reply here I use “she” for gudbuy t’jane because I was assertively directed to do so. Perhaps this was a mistake - it appears now to rely on a personal view, as much as my own does.

  As I know plenty of trans, gender queer, intersex and other self-identifying people who choose “gender identities which lay beyond a man/woman binary”, I felt this was the best option considering what I read on the blog. Please don’t misquote / misunderstand me as saying this means “considers herself beyond men and women” which has connotations different to what I’m saying.

  I’m sorry if by you’ve been insulted by my choice of words here, but I know others who are contently frustrated by peoples’ need to name their gender along a binary when it is not their personal or political disposition to do so. I can only reassert that I made a judgement call – based on my own insights and experiences which are clearly different to yours – to use a pronoun that was ultimately inclusive to all (note, not “both”) genders rather than one that is not, after reading a particular blogger’s words. I agree with the fact that I should be directed by individuals’ preferences – perhaps any failing I had here was not researching deep enough for gudbuy’s own perspective?

  I do not refer to all trans people one way and cis people another, but understand that this single news piece is what readers will go by. I’ve put my name to it and am happy to discuss the content, but feel it is unfair for anyone to judge my entire outlook on the basis of it.

  Siobhan ∼ March 19th, 2010 12:33 pm

• I’m sorry Siobhan, but I think estrobutch has got a point. While it’s not immediately obvious from the name “gudbuy t’jane” which pronouns are appropriate, a quick glance at the blog you linked shows it has the tagline “a trans woman on gender, feminism, and glam rock (among other things)”.

  Trans women are women; trans men are men. The word trans here is used as an adjective to describe this particular woman, and it’s usually safe to assume that someone who identifies as a woman or a man will prefer female or male pronouns respectively.

  Your point about “trans woman” being considered a separate gender identity is an interesting one, but not one that applies here, in my view. It is true that there are some trans people who identify as “transwomen” (or “transmen”), as a distinct category from women or men, but in my experience this is not typical, with most preferring not to have their whole identity defined by their trans status.

  Frankie ∼ March 19th, 2010 2:44 pm

• I also wrote this piece:
  http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk/campaigns-politics/us-president-obama-appoints-first-trans-woman-to-executive-branch/

  I’m not forcing my ideas or a non-binary framework onto other people’s identities. I made an inclusive choice here because I felt in this case a ngp might (I stress might) have been preferred. “She” would not have been inclusive to this possibility.

  I do not see any group of people as homogeneous and I think it’s a shame that the real, existing view individuals have of their identity “trans woman” not fitting into a binary category is seen as “just wrong”. I’m not transphobic and feel I have explained myself far enough already.

  Sio ∼ March 19th, 2010 4:52 pm

• Est, that’s harsh to say that the author is transphobic. She wasn’t trying to force a non-binary framework on anyone, she was doing the exact opposite - not making assumptions either way without the knowledge.

  Fair enough, Siobhan might not have thought about it so much if she was talking about an apparently non-trans person. But she was talking about a trans person and so considered the pronoun. Maybe she could have done more research. Maybe she didn’t have time. Maybe there are more important things to worry about and actual bigots to argue with.

  If there was an objective right & wrong on this point, and if Siobhan had got it wrong with her choice of pronoun, I would argue that your response, which sounds like an attack, is unnecessary. You are talking to a person who is obviously an advocate for trans people and yet you are going on like she has written something awful about trans people.

  Georgia Rooney ∼ March 19th, 2010 7:28 pm

• Siobhan,
  this isn’t about me being insulted its about fighting a bad habit that cis ppl have of third gendering binary id’d trans ppl. I’m not trying to paint you as a transphobe. The thought process on pronouns that you laid out here is transphobic. period. I don’t think your a hopeless transphobe. but you need to address how you’ve let cis ideas about trans ppl affect how you see our genders.

  I’m gonna suggest a cure to straighten things out for you: every time you see or write or think about trans women, flip it around so your seeing or writing or thinking woman who is trans. that should do most of the work of breaking you out of the habit. To get the rest of the way. everytime you see women, think cis and trans women. it will put them on equal footing in your brain.

  estrobutch ∼ March 20th, 2010 12:04 am

• Estrobutch,

  The offence reference was directed at another poster, sorry that wasn’t clear.

  I can only say: I simply don’t agree. I think my thought process was coherent, reasonable and not transphobic. This was also a specific case. You’re making a lot of baseless assumptions about my habitual behaviour that are unjust, and indeed my identity. I know how I think and how I write. You can choose to ignore the other example I posted here, of course and tell me how to “cure” myself.

  I think you’re refusing to consider my view seriously, but I’m not going to insist that you should. Thank you for your comments. Other perspectives are important to hear and to try to understand.

  All the best,

  Siobhan ∼ March 20th, 2010 11:42 am

• Lady Gaga does not encourage rape; she encourages intelligence - particularly through the comprehension of irony.

  http://hennepm.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/lady-gaga-the-brilliant-video-star-or-the-fame-monster/

  Paul ∼ March 21st, 2010 11:55 pm

• I acctually agree with Siobhan over the whole gender pronoun for trans people thing. As there isn’t an official gender pronoun for trans people, as some reffer to themselves as the sex they were born rather than the sex they feel and visa versa, I think that the best option is to use a genderless one. After all, everyone can be a they, regardless of how they view their gender.

  Maverik ∼ March 25th, 2010 8:48 pm

• great post as usual!

  MarkSpizer ∼ May 2nd, 2010 10:57 am