April 11, 2008

IconWhy do lesbians hate bisexuals?

Are you a Gold Star Lesbian? What do you mean you don’t know what one is? It’s a lesbian who’s never slept with a man, of course. Gold stars for the pure, no stars for the contaminated but repentant, and as for those greedy bisexuals… Well, what about those bisexuals? Those betraying, confused, promiscuous, untrustworthy fence-sitters that crept into the jolly LGBT acronym but will never know how it feels to be truly oppressed.

What a joke. Bi folk get it twice of course – as well as straightforward homophobia, they also have to face biphobia from both the straight and gay community.

But what, exactly, is biphobia? Cheryl Dobinson from bi zine The Fence describes it simply as “any type of discrimination, oppression or prejudice that is directed at or specifically affects bisexual people.” The ‘hilarious’ Gold Star Lesbian label, for example. And if it’s not prejudice masquerading as humour, it’s prejudice wrapped in ignorance.

“There’s this presumption that bisexuality is a transient phase that you dip in and out of,” explains Leeds student Laura Nieurzyla. “Like the time my mum asked me if I was ‘still’ bisexual because I was currently involved with a man, or when my gay friend seriously asked me if I would identify as gay if my next relationship was with a woman. It isn’t meant nastily, but can still get a bit tedious.”

So let’s set some bi myths uh, straight. Yes, some people genuinely do feel attraction to both men and women. No, it’s not a phase, or greed, or indecision. No, they don’t all need to have a boyfriend and a girlfriend at the same time. Yes, they are just as faithful as anyone else. No, you’re not likely to catch more diseases from them, because no, they’re not any more likely to be promiscuous.

And the greatest myth of all? That there just aren’t many bisexual women around. Actually, in a recent US study, two-thirds of self-defined lesbians reported feelings of attraction to men. Yikes.

Bisexual lesbians

The study published in Explaining Diversity in the Development of Same-Sex Sexuality Among Young Women by Lisa M. Diamond and Ritch C. Savin-Williams involved interviewing 100 women over two years. The scientists found that two thirds of the 34 women who identified as lesbian reported periodic attractions to men.

One study is interesting but not terribly statistically significant; however, it’s not the only report to find that self-identified lesbians sometimes feel attraction to men. A separate paper published in 1994, for example, found that of the 4.4% of American women who reported experiencing same-sex attraction, 94% were also attracted to men.

So if lesbians are sometimes attracted to men, does it follow that straight women are sometimes attracted to other women? Yes. In fact possibly as many as 84% of heterosexual women experience same-sex attraction. However, as Lisa Diamond notes, “A reliable answer to this question is elusive, given the stigma that prevents heterosexual women from readily acknowledging same-sex attractions.”

But back up. What does this all mean? How can 66% of lesbians – let alone 95% – be attracted to men? That would make them bisexual for a start, not lesbian, surely? Well, no actually.

Lesbian subculture

‘Lesbian’ means so much more than just being attracted to people of the same gender as yourself. It’s a subculture. You might not like everything or everyone that shares your subculture, but there is still an underlying solidarity and strength to it that we are all part of. Being a lesbian means knowing that there are bars, towns, TV programmes and haircuts that are yours. Yes they might be crap, but they’re yours. They’re ours. So is it so difficult to understand why so many lesbians are unwilling to give all this up, just because they sometimes fancy men?

“I don’t think I would ever tell my mates I sometimes fancy blokes,” explains a woman in her twenties who has asked not to be named. “I know they’d think I was ‘letting down the side’ and I’m scared I’d lose them.”

“I think that the idea of bisexuality can be very threatening and challenging to lesbians,” adds Cheryl. “Some lesbians feel that bisexual women are traitors or betrayers because we can love women, but can also ‘sleep with the enemy.’”

Lesbianism as a political rather than an emotional or social act definitely gives a new slant to some lesbians’ feelings about bisexuality. As Cheryl explains, “there can be concerns about the political implications [of bisexuality], with some lesbians seeing bisexuals as blurring boundaries/muddying the waters and potentially weakening the queer political cause. I’ve heard this called something like ‘diluting’ the movement.

“Oh, and a favorite [stereotype] of mine is the idea that bisexual women could be lesbians if only we were stronger or more politically aware or what-have-you. Sort of assuming that we need to have our consciousnesses raised kind of thing, or that we’re ‘weak’ lesbians.”

Getting over it

Much as homophobia is often an indication of latent homosexual desire, perhaps gay and straight people are sometimes biphobic because they haven’t dealt with their own bisexual desires, and the thought of getting with a guy/girl both attracts and repels them.

But how can we overcome our internalized biphobia without losing our lesbian cultural identity? The answer might be to stop thinking so rigidly about sexuality. Several social scientists point to the concept of a ‘lesbian continuum’ as a better way of interpreting female sexuality than the strict boundaries of gay, bi or straight, a theory that has been absorbed by some LGBT people under the umbrella term queer.

Regardless of whether you believe that you might be a teeny bit attracted to men yourself, or whether the idea appalls your sense of what it is to be a lesbian, the fact remains that there are plenty of women out there who identify as bisexual, and experiencing biphobia is having a negative effect on their health.

Cheryl is a queer health researcher as well as a zine writer. “I can tell you that on many mental health measures – depression, anxiety, self-harm, suicidality – research shows that bisexual people tend to report higher rates than both straight and gay people,” she says.

“I think that the reasons are primarily related to biphobia, and that we should all be aware of this and be concerned about the damage that biphobia can have.” In other words, no it’s not ‘harmless fun’. And please, no more with the lame Gold Star jibes.

Like this? Then you may enjoy these Lesbilicious articles too:

Why do lesbians love gay man porn?
“Sex is the easy part!” – Interview with Tristan Taormino, open relationships expert
Understanding bisexual attraction

311 Responses to Why do lesbians hate bisexuals?

  1. Georgia says:

    Great article – I hope every lesbian I know reads it. I find biphobia in the gay community ridiculously hypocritical and wish it would just shut up. See – I am so tired of it that that is the most I can muster up to say.

  2. Lisa says:

    Commenting as a bisexual women – it takes some time to grow into it and feel comfortable with it but now that I do, I really can’t be any other way. It’s also clear to me that there is a sexuality spectrum which shifts with time and even environment and trying to deny it or repress it can be damaging.

  3. Sasha says:

    Wow, this was such a well rounded and well written article. I recently posted a little blog about bisexual lesbians and was surprised at some of the emails I got! Great article!

  4. Eve says:

    Great article, it reflects so much of what I have experienced. It has taken me 20 years to get my confidence to become a ‘bi-activist’ because my initial experiences on the scene were so awful (including being physically attacked by a woman). Things are gradually changing and every article like this that makes someone think through their prejudice is a step forward.

  5. Heather says:

    I’m not sure why, but I really like the idea of the political implications of bisexuality… I think all that is said there is true – especially the idea that being bi weakens both feminist and gay politics…

  6. Grace Chu says:

    RE: “there can be concerns about the political implications [of bisexuality], with some lesbians seeing bisexuals as blurring boundaries/muddying the waters and potentially weakening the queer political cause. I’ve heard this called something like ‘diluting’ the movement.

    This line of thought presupposes a definitive (and monolithic) “queer political cause” to begin with.

    Find me any random group of queers and I’ll show you a group of squabbling gay/les/bi/trans folks who can’t even agree on simple matters. For example, some are working towards the legislation of same-sex marriage; some don’t believe that marriage is a valid institution for anyone; and some believe that queers should refrain from seeking marriage as a right because being queer means that one shouldn’t be about aping mainstream society. And so on and so forth. Queers can’t even agree on what the “movement” should entail, much less how to keep it “undiluted.” Queers can’t even agree on who should be considered “queer” or whether the word “queer” should still be used!

    Bah! It’s all crap.

    I can’t wait until people in general just treat others as individuals. But that may be too much to ask…

  7. Georgia says:

    It probably isn’t accurate to say that biphobic gay/lesbian people see bisexuality as a threat to the ‘queer political cause’ – that is possibly too philosophical. I have definitely met a lot of older lesbians who think that way. From what I have seen myself, the general issue is quite basic; bisexual people threaten any ‘exclusive’ sexuality (’100%’ gay, ’100%’ straight…) because it allows romantic competition from people who you can’t really compare yourself with… yet they have something you don’t…

    Despite seeing, in my own experience, that gay/lesbian/bi/trans people often disagree on the purpose behind a united movement I think there are a lot of things that have been agreed on enough to have made a difference and created change e.g. student union groups improving equal opps at their university or at least raising the debate, the groups that have played an active part in bringing about significant changes in UK legislation over the past 10 years or so.

    I remember being a young(er!) woman and coming out and meeting lots of new and interesting lesbian/gay/bi/trans people thinking wow… I then got a big shock when I started to see racism, biphobia, transphobia and general snobbishness amongst people who I expected to be open-minded, self-aware and fair. And then I realised that they are just people too – not gay superheroes with the weight of all prejudice in the world on their shoulders with a responsibility to eliminate all of it! I think some LGBT people do take that responsibility on though…believing they owe something to the world. That’s another story.

  8. Carrie Stanley says:

    Great Article.
    I was outed at school when I was 14 – not a great time for me. I never had any problems with my sexuality until I was 30 (I’m now 44) and could no longer ignore that I was attracted to men. Not only did I have to accomodate and readjust to this new phase in my life, I also had to cope with a lot of prejudice from the lesbian community. I encountered far more prejudice coming out as bisexual than I ever did as a lesbian – and it was from within the gay community that had been my support network for 15 years, at a time when I needed support. I’m nearly 45 now and really only now am I comfortable with who I am as a bisexual, but it’s no thanks to a peer group I once considered my extended family. Their loss.

  9. Michelle says:

    I’ve known I was bisexual since I was 10-11 yrs old, but I’ve never had a relationship with a woman because I was always scared of being labelled as a tourist, bi-curious, etc and I didn’t want to mess anyone around. Now I’m settled with a man, but I’m a little sad that there’s a whole side of me that I just never fully acknowledged because I was scared of anti-bi prejudice…

  10. Kat says:

    this is so fucking bias.. your trying to prove every lesbian is bi.. uhm, that makes everything just that much harder.

    “Actually, in a recent US study, two-thirds of self-defined lesbians reported feelings of attraction to men. Yikes.”

    lady, your wrong. your wrong. Sure lesbians could be attracted to men… but hetersexual women can be attracted to women, and NEVER in their life act on it.
    They’re all labels anyway. How do you know all those “lesbians” in the survey’s were a 10 on the “gay spectrum” HUH!

    THIS IS BS!!
    “Much as homophobia is often an indication of latent homosexual desire, perhaps gay and straight people are sometimes biphobic because they haven’t dealt with their own bisexual desires, and the thought of getting with a guy/girl both attracts and repels them.”

    homophobic people aren’t secret gays, thats a myth. It’s about not understanding or accepting homosexuality… so biphobic gays aren’t secret bisexuals.
    GET A LIFE.
    thanks.

  11. Sophia says:

    I think there are some practical reasons bisexual women have a hard time in lesbian community. I don’t think it’s biphobia particularly.

    One real reason lesbians sometimes are mistrustful of bisexual women is the ‘femme factor’. As a lesbian femme, I have had a harder time meeting women because they’re not sure I’m lesbian, and would be mortified to hit on a straight gal. Bisexuality is similar, people don’t want to fall in love with someone who might be a risk.

    Is a particular bisexual gal treating longer term relationships with women on the same terms with relationships with men? If so, then she’s safe to date, but if not, then it could lead to a particularly painful and unfair-feeling heartbreak if you fall for her. Many of us have had at least on disasterous crush on a ‘mostly straight’ woman early on, and don’t want to repeat what was often a very painful experience.

    Being with a bisexual woman (and I have and would again if I was single, by the way) can be a reminder of the women early on who rejected us for a man, any man.

    Another factor is how serious a given bisexual woman treats her relationships with women in comparison with men. Is sleeping with women just an occasional sexual break from a steady diet of men? Does this gal sleep with women, but wouldn’t consider marrying one? I’ve been attracted to men, but I prefer to love and relate to women, no contest. I’m pretty confident I’ll never sleep with another man, but if I did, liked it a lot and wanted to do it again, I’d probably label myself bisexual. However, if that ever happened, guys would be better off not dating me. I’d still be ‘mostly lesbian’, and could (as I did once upon a time) end up breaking men’s hearts, as romantic relationships with men just don’t affect me as deeply or matter as much to me.

  12. Wendy Herdman says:

    I certainly understand not wanting to get hurt, but why would someone lump everyone into the same catagory based on their sexuality? I’ve been dumped by a guy for another woman, should I never date another man again? I’ve been dumped by a lesbian after she finally “got” that I really did id as bi. Should I never trust a lesbian again? Look at the individual, judge them by their actions, and throw the damn lables in the bin.

  13. catrina says:

    wahoo…agree with that, def ditch the labels, its all about trust of the person you are with, whether theyve been with men or women in their past!
    When i came out (as a lesbian) alot of people couldnt understand it as ive slept with men! Truth is ive always had those feelings and happened to meet a great girl who i fell in love with! We are all capable of falling in love and as my mum says ‘you cant help who you fall for’ Some would say that makes me bisexual but i know (well 99% sure) that i wouldnt sleep with a man again as i really dont feel the attraction but who cares if people like both sexes? Aslong as people are happy, trustworthy and true who cares! Be what you want girls and be happy!

  14. Sian says:

    I totally agree that the labels should be ditched – they aren’t only damaging to those who are given them but also those struggling to associate with one. I have slept with and dated both men and women and am still completely up in the air as to which sex I would eventually ‘settle down’ with. I know this makes both straight and gay people uneasy – even close friends try and encourage me one way or the other. When I first rejoined the scene, after a long-term relationship, I was held by the throat against the wall of a club and forced to answer questions such as, ‘When you masterbate do you think of women or men?’ It wasn’t pleasant…

  15. Elle says:

    I have wrote, re-wrote, and deleted my comment several times over because there is so much that I can relate which makes me feel quite compelled to go into it at length!

    Countless couples I have called friends and can no longer look in the eye have assumed I’d be up for threesomes. Even the best friend I had through college, a gay male, had told me I was a part-timer and had simply going through a phase. I always felt that ‘if only I were a lesbian’ then I could come out to my mother! Or ‘if only I was straight’ and then I wouldn’t feel like such a whore’.

    Certain attitudes have led me to keep my sexuality closely under wraps and have completely stunted my confidence when it comes to woman.

    I feel very touched that this subject has had some light shed on it.

  16. tammy says:

    I have known I was bi since I was about 12 years old and, like Elle, spent years wishing I could ‘pick a team’ as one friend put it so I could fit in somewhere. After years of depression and self harm I have now come out, learned to accept myself, and have friends who value me for who I am not what I am. I have had a troubled marriage but even that has improved with my new found feelings of self worth. I agree with the general opinion – stop labelling things and people, we should be standing together against real issues not bickering and fighting within our own, so called, community

  17. felice says:

    Biased article.

    There ARE valid reasons why lesbians in some situations avoid bisexuals, especially during college years. Whether it is knowing you cant provide a partner with a particular thing they want, or trying to avoid straight girls who are experimenting without intentions of a relationship.

    I am NOT saying that lesbians and bi’s cannot date successfully, or that bisexuals are somehow less that lesbians, what i am saying is that boiling it down to simple oppression is negating the truth of what alot of women go through.

  18. Rasul says:

    felice – try substituting the words ‘lesbians’ and ‘bisexuals’ in your first sentence to something else, anything else… how about ‘men’ and ‘women’ erm, ‘those looking for a relationship’ and ‘those looking for a shag’, OK how about ‘students’ and lectures’?!

    I joke but the point I’m making is that there are reasons why lots of different people would avoid a person who was going to mess them around, not commit, use them to ‘experiment’. This does not mean the lesbians in your simplistic Lesbians Vs Bisexuals equation are always the ones with their heads sorted and the bisexual, experimenting, confused girls are the ones to take such sorted girls for a ride. Life just doesn’t work like that.

    I know it’s a radical concept but how about judging a situation on the *person* and not some impersonal name for their sexuality devised by someone who obviously thought you could communicate who you were planning on sleeping with for the rest of you life, into one word.

    Rant over. I loved the article.

  19. Hela says:

    Great article. Dead right I think about political suspicion of bi women. But there is more to it than that. There are problems thrown up by differeing social expectations.

    I mix with a large number of bi women through a swingers club. Mostly like myself they have male partners though some are single. Mostly they are physically rather than emotionally bi and in any case are not emotionally available, being in relationships.

    When we have gone to the Candy Bar or to women-only parties ( we have held some), the social interaction with lesbians has sometimes been awkward.

    Firstly, we are after a bit of naughtiness for the night only and the lesbian women mostly seem to be looking for lurve rather than a roll in the hay.

    Second, we are all very girly – which is sneered at by some lesbians – and have no idea about dress codes, sub-groups etc. Conversely, of course, the lesbians are not all of the lipstick variety.

    Thirdly, lesbians have this politicised subculture which is of little interest to those who are not part of it.

    Fourthly, bi girls often talk about their boyfriends, other men they fancy, weddings and children which can leave lesbians bewildered or even angry.

    So there are all sorts of pitfalls in crossing the lesbian/bi divide. Having said that, the sex does work if you can get it!

  20. Cole says:

    I think the gay community hates bisexauls because there’s a lot of anger and jealousy. I am a lesbian and I think that the gay community views bisexuals as “gay when i want to be, straight when i want to be”. Which seems to be unfair given that not all civil rights are equal among both. It might be viewed as “hey, i can chose IF or WHEN i can have all my civil rights, unlike you, who have no choice in the matter. Sorry poor homo.” The gay community are in a fight for our rights at this momment in time. And its hard to relate to someone or have compassion for someone who appears to dip in and out of the community as they please. Because it seems, at the end of the day, they DO have the option to choose to be aptart of a minority who is in a fight for their rights or take the easy road. A road where the gay community doesn’t have the option of taking.

  21. Hela says:

    It’s interesting but very depressing that you use the word ‘hate’.

    I don’t think it is defensible to ‘hate’ an individual or group because they ‘might be viewed as..’ something; I don’t think it is right to hate people because you imagine they have horrible thoughts in their heads (like ‘sorry poor homo’!) without there beings some proof of those thoughts; and I defnitely know it is wrong to hate people because of their sexuality.

    What a very, very depressing post. It makes lesbians out to be bitter and a bit…, well, I won’t say it.

    Is there anyone who can say this ain’t so?

  22. Sean says:

    This is so bizarre and I’m glad my personal experience is slightly different. Yes I’m male, and I have met many friendly, sane lesbians whom I’ve gotten along with on a social basis and they seem to have had no problem with me being bi – either when I had boyfriends, or when I actually married a woman (before equal marriage became legal). I guess to some it’s a sense of insecurity but life is too short to be hating everyone.

  23. George says:

    Hela, I’m a 40ish woman, in a solid long term relationship with a man who is happy for me to have fun alone with women if I want. Because of the prejudices you address, and I’ve encountered previously, I’ve reluctantly never taken him up on the offer! I don’t want a long term relationship (although actually that’s not strictly true because I want the fun to be safe); and I’m not just experimenting or wanting to deceive or hurt anyone. I just know how I feel and what I want! It was great to read your response to this enlightening article and discover that ‘I am not alone…’ Now I just have to take a deep breath and find out where!

  24. Claire says:

    Cole – “the gay community views bisexuals as “gay when i want to be, straight when i want to be”. Which seems to be unfair given that not all civil rights are equal among both.” – Would you say this kind of thing to mixed race people? I doubt it. Bisexuals don’t *choose* to be that way, in the same way you don’t choose to be a lesbian.

    “It might be viewed as “hey, i can chose IF or WHEN i can have all my civil rights, unlike you, who have no choice in the matter. Sorry poor homo.” ” I think this proves my point. You don’t have a choice. Bisexuals don’t have a choice of thir sexuality. Yes, bisexuals may slip by unnoticed in the straight world for having relations with another gender but that doesn’t mean it’s not just as difficult when dating someone of the same gender. Often on top of trying to validate their sexualities.But which bisexual ever wakes up one morning and decides “well, i fancy some civil rights today, I better go start looking for a man”?! You date who you wanna date and you do it for the person not for the civil rights you may or may not enjoy along the way. Oh yeah and just wanted to say, bisexuals *are* in a minority – whether they choose it or not – they’re in the bisexual minority… a minority inside another minority where they get grief from all angles. *You* are the one with the choice of supporting them or not.

  25. Faith says:

    Nice one, Claire. Bisexuals have it pretty hard! Although I do think that sometimes straight people (usually parents, friends of the person involved) are more willing to accept bisesxuality because that way they are able to assure themselves that it might just be a phase.

  26. John says:

    Reading another thread on this board, it turns out that as well as hating bi-women, lesbians also hate other lesbians if they have long hair.

    That’s a lot of women-hating for a supposedly feminist subculture. If you add that to all the men they probably ‘hate’ you have a permanently pre-menstrual minority that enjoys hating people more than making friends and allies for itself.

    And btw, remind me Cole of those
    civil rights lesbians do not have? Obviously they have rights to marrry, adopt, live together, go to lesbian clubs, read lesbian magazines, watch lesbian porn and go on lesbian holidays. They are also not denied the vote or employment, not jailed or stoned or even ridiculed in the streets.

    Perhaps it simply more fun to feel like victims.

  27. Alex says:

    As a girl in a long term relationship with a man but had previous relationships with women i fully relate to this. Having spent much of my youth being attracted to both men and women as well as having relationships with both, i decided that instead of labelling myself bi/gay/straight, that if i meet the right person regardless of their sex i could be in a long happy relationship with them.

  28. Anon says:

    John, f off I hate you.

  29. Lydia says:

    *quote* “hate other lesbians if they have long hair” *quote*

    I suppose your reffering to the comon steriotype of ‘dykes’ and ‘lipstick lesbains. Are you serious?

    I dont think lesbians hate Bi’s i think lesbians who want a relationship dont like people who use them as experiments.

  30. Hela says:

    That’s a cheek Lydia! If I like coffe and tea, I’m not ‘experimenting’ with tea when I’m not drinking coffee. I just fancy tea right then. End of story.

    In my case, I’m not looking for a relationship with a woman (though I might be, if I was ever to be single again). And if a lesbian says she doesn’t want to have a loving relationship with a bi woman because the bi woman has twice as many alternative temptations and anyway may in the end find it simply easier to go with the flow and end up in a hetero relationship, then I can see the rationality in that.

    But, and it is a big BUT: what’s wrong with casual sex? I don’t see how any of those reservaations applying to casual sex with bi women. Surely lesbians aren’t so pre-feminist that there’s a strong current against casual sex?

  31. Laura N says:

    I don’t necessarily think it’s reasonable for someone to not want to be with a bi woman because she has ‘twice as many temptations’ because that implies more to do with insecurity and lack of trust in general, regardless of orientation. It shouldn’t matter whether a bi person has more choice in the population overall – more ‘temptations’, if you’re monogamous then you’re monogamous and anyone who thinks bisexuals are more of a ‘risk’ because they’re more likely to cheat might want to look at their trust issues….
    Casual sex / loving long term relationship / open relationship / whatever…it’s about defining what both parties want and trusting eachother, it doesn’t matter if you’re a girl/boy/gay/straight/bi… psh.

  32. Lydia says:

    I dont mean all bi women are experimenting! Obiously not. I mean young people who just experiment, as you do, and hurt other people who throught they where in for a relationship. Casual sex is great as long as both parties no that thats all it is.

  33. Hela says:

    There you go again being hateful and patronising, Lydia!

    Why do you say I am “just experimenting”? That’s what I did when I was a teenager and a student. In the last 3 years I’ve had sex with over 50 women and the boyfriend of 35 of them. I am old enough to know what I like. Claiming I am ‘experimenting’ is just an insulting way of trying to belittle bi women. We’re here, get used to it!

  34. PATTY ZACARIAS says:

    I THINK EVERY ONE HAS A STORY TO TELL WHEN IT TO BISEXUALITY.I HAD ALWAYS BEEN ATTRACTITED TO GIRLS. MY FIRST KISS WAS WITH A GIRL I WAS 13. BUT TOO AFRAID OF BRAKING MY MOMS HEART.SO AFTER THREE YEARS OF BEIN WITH EACOTHER I BROKE UP . I MISSED HER AND THINK ABOUT HER BUT STILL NEVER HAD THE GUTS TOO LOOK FOR HER AND TELL HER. AT 17 YRS OLD I MET MY NOW HUDSBAND.I AM 31 YEARS OLD I HAD TO GO THRU A BREAK DOWN EMOTIANILY I WAS DESTROYED .IT WAS A POINT IN MY LIFE I NEVER TAUGHT I WOULD HAVE . I WAS CRAVING TO BE WITH A GIRL TO KISS HER HUG, HER TO SMEEL HER SWEET SCENT.SO I WENT FOR IT MET SOMEONE AND FINALY HAD SOME GUTS TO COME OUT TO MY HUSBAND .HE HAD A PRBLEM WITH THIS AT FIRST BUT NOT NO MORE.HE UNDERSTAND MY SITUATION.NOW THAT AT LEAST HE KNOWS I FEEL SO LUCKY TO HAVE HIM.

  35. Hela says:

    I know so many women in Patty’s situation in my swingers club.

  36. liz says:

    Hi all, i have just stumbled across this site and i have been reading through some of the posts, this one paticulary intrigued me,
    i am very confused as to what i get classed as, lesbians say i am bi, and bi women say i am a lesbian, basically i have always been attracted to women, from a very young age, but my family are very funny about things like that, so in the end to make things easier, i stopped seeing women, and started dating men,
    i never once fancied a man, but then i met lee, i fell in love with him instantly, i have no idea why it was different with him, but it is.
    mens bodies repulse me, i turn away if i see a man with his clothes off, but with lee, i love every single thing about him, he is 6 foot 4 inches and weighs 18 stone, he looks very manly, so i am even more confused as to why i fell in love with him and not a fem looking man, all i know is i am incredibly happy i fell in love with him,
    i still find women attractive, and lee knows about my sexuality, and he doesnt care, he just wants me to be happy, which i am.
    but i just dont know what people would lable me as, i dont like lables, i explain to people about my sexuality when asked, as i like to keep my hair short etc,
    i am so very confused by it all, i love my partner and want to be with him, but i am still incredibly attracted to other women, i havent been with a woman for many years now, and i do miss being with a woman, but i would never be willing to give lee up for one, but even though we have a fantastic sex life, other men still do nothing for me, but women always do, i think about them all the time hehehe, so does that make me a lesbian, bi, straight or just incredibly lucky for finding someone to love me for me?

  37. Crissy says:

    I can appreciate some of the entries I have been reading here. I am what some of the population refers to as a major “Lipstick Lesbian.” I have been made to feel as though there is something wrong with me on more than one occasion. The last such time occurred about 2 months ago while camping with 3 other girls who are lesbian..2 of them being a married couple. The third girl had a long standing crush on me but has never done anything about it. While camping, I had to listen to ignorant comments about me and how I’m so “girly”..and even at one point I was shouted at in exasperation,”God,you;re such a GIRL!” Hmmm..my immediate response was…”Well fuck, aren’t Lesbians SUPPOSED to like GIRLS?” I am tired of the way I have been treated because of ridiculous labels and people’s warped views. I know I am a LESBIAN…I’ve know ALL OF MY LIFE….Just because I have long hair,wear make-up,etc.etc.does NOT make me any less of a LESBIAN than anyone other! I sympathize with those Bisexuals who feel as though they are not being treated fairly….I say screw em’ all if they cannot accept who and what you are!!! CHEERS!

  38. Cole says:

    Lol! John, I’m not sure what country you live in(not saying it sarcasticly, seriously) but the USA only has two states are allowing gays to wed!!! Mass. and Cali.and if you don’t count the right to wed as a civil rights issue then please tell me what is. Being gay is not illegal in the US but the right to live the rest of ones life in a happy legally binding relationship is illegal for American gays. I already said IN MY PREVIOUS POSTING that i think the gay community is jealous and angry over rights that we can not have soley based on the fact that I’m not sexually attracted to the opposite sex. My blunt and unsugar-coated answer to why the gay community doesn’t like bisexuals is because we are jealous, bitter and angry. MY OPINION ONLY. Point blank. My honest, hard, sad,unsatisfactory answer to the question: Bitter and Angery. Bitter and Angry. Bitter and Angry. Thats your answer. You can get mad if you want, I’m sure a lot will disagree and have the wonderful right to. But I feel it is sad and true. That is something as a community that we MUST work on.

  39. shakeyermoneymaka says:

    Hey John unsurprisingly lesbians are an international phenomenon(read not just western phenomenon). In this light I would just like to point out that apart from South Africa, every state in Africa and many across Asia and the Middle Eeast count homosexuality (including lesbianism) as illegal – the price you pay for being who you are is anywhere from imprisonment to a public stoning or hanging. Based on this I would say one or two civil rights are definitly missing wouldn’t you?

  40. shakeyermoneymaka says:

    ps By the by wed = civil union/paretenership not marriage, the politically correct understanding being to refer to this as seperate but equal. Yeah right!

  41. John says:

    Cole, I’m British. Sorry I thought this was a British site because of the .co.uk. So you’re in the US which is a bit more backward. OK. I still totally disrespect the phenomenon that you are outlining: that feeling peeved at their own treatment – however justifiably – US lesbians are bitter towards people who are NOT oppressing them, like some immature teenager lashing out at innocent third parties because she is in a bad mood. It’s just the sort of politics reactionaries used to say made women unfit for the vote.

    Shakeymoneymaka, fair point. Pity US lesbians choose to dwell on their own 80% full rights instead of the 0% of rights of most of the women of the world who are treated like cattle, beasts of burden or sexual slaves and sometimes even have their clits cut off. But never mind them, lets concentrate on the last remaining obstacle to total equality in the West.

  42. Anastasia says:

    As a lesbian (in a Civil Partnership) who used to be in a straight marriage with a man, I find biphobia incomprehensible. No one ever heard the saying “People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones”?

    People should love who they love. It’s not for anyone else to criticise them. And who are these Label Police who decide what people with a particular label can feel, think or do?

    Kinsey discovered in the 1950s that the majority of people had bisexual feelings, whether or not they acted on them. It’s not news. I’m amazed anyone’s still arguing about it!

  43. L.C. says:

    I know a lot, (I repeat A LOT) of bisexual people and 99% all married to or in a relationship with the opposite sex, some have kids, and are “swingers” behind closed doors. They can be seen as “straight” in public and be accepted because they don’t have to “come out”, but they can still get their sexual “kicks” and no one has to know about it. If that works for them, that’s great – they can do what they please and they deserve to be happy. I, however, want to be with one person forever (yes, I’m a lesbian, in fact I’m one of those “gold stars” the article pokes fun about). I’ve tried my hand at dating bisexuals a few times. The relationship starts out great, but then they start asking for 3somes with a man or they want to have an “open-relationship”. It all goes down hill from there…

    “I dont think lesbians hate Bi’s i think lesbians who want a relationship dont like people who use them as experiments.”

    VERY agreed. I do my best not to hate anyone – especially for their orientation, as I know what that feels like. But it is tiring getting hit on by girls with boyfriends who just want a night of “fun” and then they run back to their man. If you’re bisexual, you’re bisexual, if you’re gay, you’re gay and if you’re straight, you’re straight. Whatever makes you happy. But bisexual women who are in relationships with men should GIVE OUT the respect to lesbian women that they expect lesbian women to GIVE
    BACK to them.

    Like, don’t write us all off as “bisexual haters”, especially if you don’t know our own personal experences. That’s stereotyping us because you’re afraid we’ll stereotype you. It’s also probably not a great idea to go up to a lesbian and talk about your boyfriend or how you and your boyfriend like having 3somes. I find that offensive because, being asked for 3somes before by male/female couples (they STILL ask eventhough they know I’m a lesbian), it makes me feel like I’m a sex object to them. They just want me for one night then they’re going to ditch me and probably go have one with another girl. It hurts, and it’s not a great thing to brag about, much less talk about when you’re around lesbians.

    “Just because I have long hair,wear make-up,etc.etc.does NOT make me any less of a LESBIAN than anyone other!”

    I LOVE girly lesbian’s! In fact, I have a hard time finding girls because I’m only attracted to very femme women and most of the femme women are either straight or bi and taken :’(

  44. Anastasia says:

    L.C. you make some good comments. I do think personally that society’s homophobia puts enormous pressure on people to live “straight” lives. It affects an awful lot of completely gay/lesbian people (I lived in the closet, in a hetero relationship for many years, largely due to this pressure), let alone bisexual people.

    I don’t like to generalise, but with so much pressure against living in a lesbian relationship, it isn’t surprising that those who feel they have a choice, may eventually opt for a hetero relationship.

    Then again, everyone’s different – I am sure there are many bisexual women who do settle into happy relationships with a female partner. But I also think we need to understand why others can’t.

    Personally, I believe we should blame our homophobic society.

  45. Maya says:

    I’ve been reading all these comments with real interest. As a bisexual young woman I have faced so many complications as far as my sexuality and gender identity goes, and it’s hard not to get angry at the rest of the world sometimes, because it gives me a break from being angry at myself for not fitting in anywhere. In my experience, if you find a subculture (LGBT, gothic, fetish, whatever) that suits you, you can find friends and partners relatively easily, but it does mean if you have feelings that go against your group culture then you face difficulties. Heck, I like men AND women, I’m good at arts AND science, I eat vegan food AND steak, I like going to gigs AND waking up without a hangover or neurological impairment the next morning. My goodness, do I piss people off. I spread confusion and anger just by being myself, and I KNOW it. I don’t hate others because they can’t understand me, I don’t even really understand myself. I find that men get angry with me if I don’t want to randomly sleep with them, and find that women get angry if I accidentally glance at their breasts. Do I like being this way? Of course not. I wish I could find one thing and stick to it, truncate half of my identity and find peace and a place where I’m accepted for who I am (or who I become once I limit myself in order to be accepted). But I can’t, because a part of me is really attracted to beautiful, feminine women, a part of me really loves the intellectual and physical qualities of masculinity – and I’m neither, I have none of those qualities myself. Some straight men think that bisexual women are kinky, which is maybe true but only a part of it. I’m human, I feel so much pain and suffering because of my orientation, my image, my beliefs, my identity – even though these are things I was born with and therefore cannot change. Best of both worlds? Yeah right…

  46. Hela says:

    Very interesting Maya.

    I have a bi male friend who regards himself as cursed because whenever he is in a relationship with a man he is gradually overwhelmed with the need for a woman; and vice versa. And I guess that can be the same for some women who are bi, especially the emotionally bi.

    I’m a member of a swingers club for young people, there are hundreds of bi women involved, 95%+ of us must be bi. 90% are with men and about 10% are single. Just a couples of couples are women andd they are bi rather than lesbian. The men let us have sex together whenever we want to do it without them.

    I tend to think this arrangement is the best that a bi woman can do. Men – I mean the right sort of man – seem much more cool about me having it with a girl than a lesbian would about me having it with a man (or a girl).

    But I guess this only works if you find a liberal guy and you are OK with casual sex. I can see it might not work for an emotionally bi woman.

  47. Rachel says:

    I’ve just read through all these comments, and glad to see some understanding people.

    I am bisexual, with more of an attraction to women. I would happily settle down with either sex. I have always supported LGBT rights, before I realised I was bi. I’m fed up of my sexuality not being recognised, even on some websites when choosing your sexuality they don’t have an option for bisexuals.

    Whatever anyone says… the world is not bi friendly (in general). Say theres this girl and she dates a guy… she is labelled straight. The girl and guy split up. After some time this same girl starts to date this woman. Now she is labelled gay.

    I can understand why lesbians may have a problem with some bisexuals. Even some bisexuals do (meaning we also have a problem with bisexuals who are using us for their experimentation). While I’m all for experimentation, its not fair to tred on peoples feelings.

    At the end of the day labels don’t account for much… its behaviour. Learn to love people for who they are, and not let it depend on their label.

  48. paula says:

    hi guys n girls i have sat and read all the comments on this page and i am rather suprised that somepeople feel this way about bi sexual people,i have many gay lesbian tv friends and they all accept me for who i am admittedly a few of the lesbian girls didnt speak to me for a while but now they have goten to know my personality we get on very well! so being “bi” my self it makes me feel very sad and hurt that we are regarded as greedy or using girls for experiments !!! i am in a loving relationship with a guy have been married for a few years now and i have had a lesbian relationship whilst been with my husband he doesnt get upset or jealous and the sex is great he has even been involved at times i just feel if you are upfront with both people and they agree and no one gets hurt then u should have as much fun in life as possible x x x

  49. Miss Nikki says:

    There is so much I want to say and emotions are welling up inside, as I am emotionally bisexual, and have experimented in my twenties with bi curious girls, and then had lack lustre relationships with terrible men, one who I suspect is closet gay and was not sexually into me (which did end up hurting my sexual exploration, rather than believe there are definate sections, I see my sexuality as a continum as my world becomes more sensually mature.
    I have finally found a beautiful man that has helped me heal from incestal abuse and has watched me blossom, and I feel centred now to revisit my deep, emotional longing for a woman’s intimate thoughts, her softness and her emotional complexities. Not a one night stand.
    I worry about venturing into another toxic culture that will force me to “hide” that I am in love with ONE man, and surely this love shows that I am capable of much more love. Being bisexual has no shame for me, it is what it is, and all my friends and family know, that I am all loving, appreciating all beauty.
    A woman’s sexuality is directly influenced by her environment and her interactions with it, some times I fear the Lesbians will hate me, when all I would look for is guidance. I think another bisexual is the only fair way to go, as I would not want to force my man or my man loving on someone I cared for.
    Bisexuals are real, emotional lovers who have no clear preference, just want to be loved, respected and care for beauty in thier lives.

    Miss Nikki

  50. Paula says:

    All i’m going to say is I love being bisexual. I don’t go playing with peoples feelings. Whether I was in a relatioship with a girl or guy, it would be the same relationship (same emotional feelings and treatment). I think people really need to see that bisexuals don’t get an easy ride on all this at all!

  51. tina says:

    Bisexuals are just mad because someone finally outed them for being lying cheating whores.
    80% of all bisexual women end up with a man so ladies don’t waste your time on bi’s

  52. Milly says:

    Tina, your statement is offensive. You may have had a bad experience, but it’s unfair and hurtful to generalise like that.

  53. Georgia says:

    Offensive and so completely and utterly loaded with personal issues… write to Sappho and sort yourself out. Where did you get your figures?

  54. Sammie says:

    Tina – OUCH. Seriously. Most of the bisexual women I’ve known have ‘ended up’ in long term relationships with other women.

    Out of all the bisexual women I know, I’m one of the very few who aren’t, and that’s because I’m with no-one at the moment. Hell, I’ve had one boyfriend (who has now disowned me for being bi, nice), and that’s been it. I haven’t even been kissed by anyone else – partly due to the bisexual label.

    I only really know the bad sides to being bi – no-one trusts me for a start. The second I say I’m bi, it’s like this switch gets pressed in people’s heads, and straight away they start treating me as if I’m completely irresponible and untrustworthy.

    (I even lost a job after some servere bullying from a gay guy for being bi. So when I say I know the bad side of this, I mean it.)

    I only know one person who identifies as lesbian who’s ever had anything nice to say about going out with a bisexual girl, as a general idea. One. And that hurts, because I thought it was alright to love other girls.

    I’d also like to point out that I’ve never gone out with the intention of finding a girl/guy. I’ve always just been interested in finding a ~person~, simple as.

  55. John says:

    I think what Tina has sadly shown is that some lesbians are screwballs. Not because they want to have sex with people of the same sex – plenty of other lesbians and bi women seem to enjoy that without becoming twisted. But in some cases lesbianism seems to come with a hatred of men and non-lesbian women – basically the rest of humanity.

    The question is: are they nuts because they are lesbians or lesbians because they are nuts? I think it is the first. I put lesbian misanthropy down to a sublimated resentment at being different.

    But others have pointed to the high proportion of lesbians who are not conventionally attractive, physically, and suggested that it this which makes them feel different, rejected and angry – and drives them towards lesbianism. In which case the rage and misanthropy precedes the lesbianism.

    Discuss!

  56. Laura N says:

    Nuts because they are nuts? Some lesbians are a sandwich short of a picnic, as are some straight people… Pah. There’ll always be some prejudice crazies out there!
    MMMmmmm a peanut butter sandwich…

  57. Lisa says:

    although personally, i am 100% lesbian, i find that the article itself makes a lot of sence, i have known many bi women and even dated some.
    i think the whole idea that they are “diluting the cause” is rediculas, and although i have never come across anyone who saw it that way, can see how some bi women may feel shut out of the gay community.
    personally the main reason i try to steer clear of bi women is; in my experience, they have all wanted to inevitably settle down with a man, and in which case leads me to believe that dating them is without purpose and only results in heart ache. however, if i was to meet a woman who identified as Bi and i was attracted to, i wouldnt purposely ignore those feelings. maybe this to some is seen as Biphobia, but to me is merely learning by experience.
    i do find it suprising that you would suggest that most lesbian women are actually bi due to them at some point having sexual feelings towards men, as this could just be a result of their questioning themselves. i know when i first started to realise that i was gay and still confused by who i was, i purposely tried to imagine that i would be with a man, and that what i was feeling towards women was just a phase. does this mean my security in my sexuality is now void? despite the fact that i never acted on what i now know to be feelings that were forced solely to fit in to society, i did have the thoughts of being with a man.. so therefor am I bisexual? of course not!
    however the article did make me realise a lot of predjudices that i never knew even existed. saying that i believe the labels of “gay” “lesbian” “Bi” “straight” are all just that.. Labels.. it doesnt define who the person is on a whole.

  58. K.J says:

    “I have a bi male friend who regards himself as cursed because whenever he is in a relationship with a man he is gradually overwhelmed with the need for a woman; and vice versa.”

    I definitely relate to this. It’s particularly frustating as I am with the loveliest guy now, but constantly feel unhappy. I know I should be glad that I can choose how I want to live but I wish I could just be one way or the other! I feel trapped in the middle. It’s bloody ridiculous!

  59. Geri says:

    KJ – have you considered polyamory?

    Are you being monogamous because that’s what really suits you emotionally or because you are being pressured into it by the unsympathetic demands and values of a monosexist culture?

  60. xZOEx says:

    I think that saying that 95% of lesbians are attracted to men is silly.. its just not possible – why would gay women go through all this struggle over the years, and endure pain (pshysically AND verbally), voilence, harassment, if they actually fancied guys? That makes no sense at all now does it!! I am a lesbian (GOLD star lesbian, as you put it!) – never slept with or fancied the opposite sex. They are just ‘things’ i pass in the street, i dont even aknowledge they exist to be honest. Im not a man hater either, they just simply dont exist in my little world. I dont have guy friends either.. they just do absolutely nothing at all for me physically, mentally or friendly. As for why a lot of lesbians dont like bisexuals – in my years, every bisexual girl iv been with has run off with a man, or ‘used’ me for her silly little experiment and THEN ran off back to men, cheated on me with men, and its sooooo bloody annoying when they sit there talking about bloody blokes, we dont want to hear about you fancing blokes – we want you to tell us how much you fancy us, and make us feel abit special, you know, cos we are still women after all. And we have competition with guys dont foget – we want the girlies to come to us, not guys, so if your stood there talking about blokes, of course we are going to get jelous and shun you. Its quite common on the gay scenes in England for lesbians to shun bisexuals, but maybe if you stop cheating/running off with men or using us for your silly experiments (lesbians arnt human guinee pigs ya know, we do have feelings!!), then we’d be more than happy to welcome you. xxx

  61. squeezy says:

    I should pass this onto my gay female friends! I am a bisexual and they call me a ‘dirty bi’ in jest haha! quite Ironic really as 3 of them have been married in the past.

  62. Maxine says:

    By no means all lesbians hate bisexuals. I am extremely grateful for the support and friendship of some lesbians.

    Where I have seen biphobia it tends to be based on the following premises:

    1) Bisexuals are just experimenting.
    As this article hints, a lot of confusion stems from people seeing bisexuality as an experiment rather than a legitimate identity. Some women do experiment with other women at points in their lfie as part of a wider rethink of their identity. It’s a normal part of the process of coming of age, or coming out of a relationship, where you strive to do things you wouldn’t normally do, or wouldn’t have done when you were in a couple, and I don’t think it is something to be condemned or sneered at. To me, though, identifying as bisexual based on being attracted to both sexes over a prolonged period is something a bit different, and often resentment arises from people being unable to distinguish the two.

    2) Bisexuals just want men
    Not true. Plenty of bisexuals are in long-term relationships with women. And yes, some do come to identify as lesbian.

    3) Bisexuality is just titilation for men
    Actually, straight men can be just as, if not more, biphobic than lesbians. Some may go along with lad-mag engineered bravado about g-o-g porn and threesomes because culturally they are expected to, but when push comes to shove (so to speak) they can’t handle it. Bisexuality is *not* a prop for male titilation, and when they realise this (and the political/philosophical implications) it actually makes them very insecure. I’ve heard the “Shouldn’t you just decide?” speech from more men than women.

  63. Lauren says:

    to be quite honest, after reading the multiple comments on the matter, being bi and being a lesbian is not different from being white or mixed race (sorry if thats not “pc” and if any one wants to have a go about that too go for it) you have no choice in what you are. people learn and feel different things from their past experiances. i am a lesbian and have had many relationships with bi women and gay women.. also in my younger days i had relationships with men. the other women in my “gay community” know this and have no objection to it at all.. i am fed up of bi’s and lesbians trying to put each other down and deffending themselves. WE ARE ALL PEOPLE! and if none of us accept what each other are then we are just as bad as the straight community trying to discourage us from what we are and trying to rid us from society. im sure bi’s were just as offened at what the pope said as they gays were. so stop bloody bickering and get on with your lives!

  64. Rei says:

    I agree with a lot of what people have said in these comments, and I find biphobia as irritating as the next sane individual.

    However – and I’m trying to word this as delicately as possible, because I honestly mean no offence to bisexuals – there are quite a few people who claim to be bisexual when they are not. That doesn’t mean that bisexuality is bad – it means that there are straight people who adopt the label because they feel that gives them an okay to try it out with the same sex, and then drop it as soon as they’ve tried it and realised it isn’t really their thing. And that’s often very hurtful for the unsuspecting homosexual/bisexual who’s been “tried out”.

    I’m not saying that this justifies biphobic behaviour – far from it – but it might account for some of it. I’d venture that it’s more common among young people (I’m just shy of twenty, and this has happened to me twice), which might be why for some people the prejudice carries into their adult lives.

  65. Rachel says:

    Zoe. You are branding all bisexuals as all the same. NO we do not always go on about men. NO we are not going to run off with a man JUST because you are a woman. NO we are not more likely to cheat.

    Also, men are not ‘things’ they are human beings and if it wasn’t for them you wouldn’t be alive. I hope you at least treat the males in your family with some respect. But by judging how you are talking about two groups of people as the same person, you don’t seem to respect many people.

    I am sorry you’ve had bad experiences with bisexual women. Believe me, I hate ‘bisexuals’ like that too. Some of us truly like both sexes and to me I don’t care what ‘bits’ you have, its the person that counts. Oh, and I know many lesbians and straight girls that cheat too, or leave their partner for someone else. Gender doesn’t make it any different.

  66. I don’t think ‘hate’ is the same as ‘do not want to have a sexual relationship with’. That’s personal preference.

  67. Kim says:

    Sometimes I wonder if the lesbian dislike of bisexuals and there supposed promiscuity has to do with the assumption that women are naturally not promiscuous or not as promiscious as men. From what I’ve seen it is NEVER okay for a girl to cheat on a girl or a guy and not be called a whore; however, it a man does it then it’s a case of ‘boys will be boys’. And for people who say that bisexual women are just playing with lesbians and that we always end up with men, have you considered that saying shit like, “tourist” or “fence-rider” might have something to do with it? We’re often not welcome in the lesbian community where as straight men don’t seem to have the same aversion and I’m not just talking about the frat boy, “girl on girl is hot” reaction either.

  68. Zoé says:

    I just do not understand that you miss the real difference between homosexual and straight people and Bis..

    Staight and homosexuals are into ‘same’, as with only one gender, sexuality, love..
    While Bis (as I am), do not fell attracted or love a gender but a person, what he/she will be, make us feel, not what he/ she represent..
    There can be why Bis are so badly seen by whether the straight and gay community because Bis are ‘pro-choice’ and not ‘closed-choice’

    I might generalise Bis but I really think that you missed the fact that Bis do not have all to be ‘curious’, or ‘tourists’ but just people loving other people whatever their gendres and the public general idea that it reflects..

  69. Kirsten says:

    It took me a while to latch on to the idea that a lot of people just can’t understand the concept that you can be attracted to both sexes. But it kinda makes it easier to deal with. Because then I know it’s about ignorance rather than intolerance, and ignorance is a thing we can do something about.

    It means that I can explain to my friend, when she asks, that no I don’t wake up in the morning and think ‘oh – I’m attracted to guys / women today’, that it’s actually the person that I am attracted to, not the gender.

    The thing is that people who are 100% into men or women very closely identify their sexuality with a specific gender. As a bi woman I don’t base my sexuality on gender. But that can be a difficult concept for people who do define their sexuality that way to understand.

    It’s an education thing. We’re never going to change everyone’s minds because, lets face it, there are some pretty biggoted people out there. And yes, in an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to justify and explain ourselves. But this is the only world we’ve got. If we don’t like it we have to change it. And articles like these raise awareness and help us move forward.

    Thanks

  70. Paula says:

    Before I really came to terms with my sexuality, I thought the LGBT community was a close knit family because they are all fighting for equality and fairness. As I became aware of my sexuality (me being a bisexual woman) I became aware that Lesbians have big issues with bi people. I don’t get it. It angers me to the core. Life is not peachy for me. Lesbians think it’s a phase… I laugh at their faces because they are just as ignorant as anyother person who thinks it’s wrong to be who you are.

    Like I say to many people. Just because you have had a bad experience with someone, you shouldn’t generalise everyone. I’ve had a lot of heartache but you don’t see me hating every person of that gender just because of that. It’s just bitterness. Life is too short and precious to hold meaningless grudges against others. Some lesbians need to rethink their ideas about bisexual people because most of us are geniune. We only love the person not their gender!

  71. Erin says:

    i’m bisexual and i’m not permiscuous, i have never had an std, i adore women and men but i perfer women over men. i rememeber having sexual thoughts about women when i was 9, i’m 19 now and i have not gone through a ‘faze’ so i really do wish that lesbian women would stop degrading me just becuase i like men too :(

  72. Chantai says:

    if you would’ve asked me 2 years ago I would’ve told you I was straight. I’m married, I have 1 child and have been with my husband since I was 14. but something happened. recently I met a girl. she does karaoke where I go..and there was something about her. i thought about her all the time…even when i was with my husband. ne way, after speaking to a very good friend of mine…things started returning to my memory. I remembered as a girl…always enjoying women, looking at them, admiring their beauty. and myself…i’ve always caught flack for being “manly” as a women.. i’ve always had desires, though. but where I was from, a very small town, it was totally unacceptable. in fact, until i moved to ny, I’ve never met another lesbian before. i just thought i was weird…i have a lot of masculine mannerisms…i used to sneak and wear my husbands clothes…..but i totally forgot myself. i “forgot” those things…because afterall I am married..and have been since I was 20. I never had a real opportunity to really date a women…and having been with a man…I can say that i am bi. actually i’d sway more lesbian…but i am attracted to certain men. but i’d say just as a lesbian doesn’t “choose” to be lesbian… a bisexual doesn’t choose it either. imagine…never having an opportunity to love a beautiful woman….(do to the choices i ignorantly made as a child)…and be rejected by the community. its a bitter pill to swallow. especially considering there are people, like myself, who genuinely love both women & men. I wish I was just “straight” or “lesbian”..it would make my life much easier. I wouldn’t have to sneak glances, be tempted by women I couldn’t act on, or try to “act” straight to not alarm anyone….and suppress my desires? there are people who have never had an opportunity to be open…does that mean they are not to be trusted? I understand being cautious, once you get to know someone, when they are “iffy” but that’s the key. getting to know someone! if everyone stopped judging everyone else, and took the time to get to know them, i think you’d be able to know where your partner stands. my family has no idea about me. the they are very disapproving of the community. imagine how that feels. once I told my mom I was hanging out w/ a lesbian friend…n she said, “dont associate to much with them…people might think your gay”. that hurt. but i walk this path.. once I struggle with. i do love my husband. so i guess that makes me bi. but should that make me less reliable or immediately cast out? wow! ya know, the girl i liked, I realized…its because not only is she completely hot…but she reminds me of how i used to be when I was younder. so now, having found the real me, i can only leave little trails of breadcrumbs….i found this sight in my search for little things i can do to make me feel more comfortable with the real me. some people have different hats they have to wear…to survive…or to protect the ones they love. it doesn’t make them any less of a person. i just wanted to say my peace..because i dont really have anyone i can talk to about this. I just trying to figure this all out. bisexuals have their own struggles. I just urge everyone to be more open-minded, and love more. afterall, no one can define you but you. no one has to live your life but you. so be happy. if i may, i would like to post the poems I wrote or is there a better forum for them? i’m new to this.
    thanks for listening.

  73. Chantai says:

    i just want to add 1 more thing, I think people or either confusing or mistaking bisexuals for “bi-curious” there is a difference. bisexuals are sincerely attracted to both men & women….we are not “curious” unsure heterosexuals who are trying “this out”. maybe that’s where there’s ignorance within the community. there is, from my limited knowledge and research, a community of “bi-curious” people who I suspect are heterosexual but curious about what its like to be with their sam sex, or, who might want to try “it” out for fun….. I dont want to label or judge because who really knows a person’s circumstances….but that’s my thoughts about “bi-curious”

  74. Tegan says:

    I’m sorry, but, when I was 14, I came out as bisexual because it is more socially acceptable to be bisexual than gay. I called myself bisexual for 3 years, although I knew I was gay. My girlfriend did almost exactly the same thing. My ex-girlfriend did a very similar thing. 7 out of 8 of my close lesbian friends also did this. (The 8th didn’t come out until her mid 20′s though). So, yes, everytime I meet someone under around 25 who calls themselves bisexual, myself and all of my close friends just think they are gay and are doing a staggered coming out.

    As soon as I meet someone who hasn’t done this, I will probably change my mind. But I’m 27, have been a part of the LGBT community since I was 15, and have not met a ‘bisexual’ who has stuck around or carried on identifying bisexual for more than 5 years.

    So, to me, just from personal experience, bisexuality is just a word that people use to stagger coming out, making it less of a shock to people.

  75. Asteroid says:

    I believe that everyone, male and female, is emotionally bisexual — as a hetero you can feel a deep Platonic love for a person of your own gender; and as a homo you can feel similarly for someone opposite your gender. However, sexually bisexual is an entirely different matter and as a homo female I have no respect for bisexual women. The idea of being sexually intimate with a woman who seeks pleasure in also offering herself as a vessel for scum is disgusting to me. Lesbian sex is the most intimate sexual activity two humans can share because your mouth goes willingly where others often fear to tread. To mix it up with the remnants of d*ck is a recipe for venereal transmissions which generations (and communities) of exclusively-homo women have not been subject to.

  76. Jen says:

    Yeah Asteroid, that’s one way of looking at things. Is it not slightly naive to believe that just because someone is a lesbian they will necessarily enjoy going down on women?

  77. Asteroid says:

    Sistah Jen, it’s one thing for a male to have issues with the musky forest — but if a lesbian (a HOMOSEXUAL woman) can’t enjoy being up close and personal with p*ssy, her problems run deeper than just “odd girl out”.

  78. Lisa says:

    How can you have no respect for Bi-sexual women, if anything it is much harder for them than anyone. I am Bi myself, and i do not think what I do is wrong at all, i like who I like, whether they are the same or the opposite sex! It’s about the person not the sex, and if I fall in love with a girl or a boy, either way i will not mind, cos I love them!

  79. asteroid says:

    “How can you have no respect for Bi-sexual women….” I’m going to assume that this is directed at me since it matches a content in my first post (although I think it’s best that anyone who objects to, or questions, someone’s personal opinion do it in a manner that doesn’t turn this forum into a one-on-one arena).

    If reading the entire opinion did not answer the question, it’s because bisexuals and bisexuality promoters can’t fathom that even with all the arguments for rationalizing a female-to-male-to-female-to-male-to-female sexual lifestyle it is simply not acceptable to many (if not most) homosexual women. Go on and have sex with any gender you want. Fall in love with both at whatever time you want. No one is stopping you. But don’t try to sell a ‘snake oil’ of sexual kumbaya to women who don’t want any level of intimate connection to men in their private lives.

  80. Jewels says:

    I really enjoyed this article. I am a bisexual lesbian, and thank God for my attraction to men. My family is very traditional Catholic, and intend for me to get married one day and would ostracize me if i told them I intended to spend my life with a woman. As a Latina family comes first before anything, so even though I may have to sacrifice my desire to be with a woman for the rest of my life, I’ll be at least happy with a man.

    Ahh, that’s probably why all the gays hate us.

  81. Jewels says:

    and sex period is precious and intimate, with a man or a woman. the two become one.

  82. asteroid says:

    At least with this thread we get a clear look at how deluded bisexuals are and how they play with both sides of the sexual coin: when the going gets tough, they jump to where the living is safest; and when the living is easy, they f*ck whoever answers “yes”. And of course, bisexuals love nothing more than inventing new terminologies to make it all feel legit: such as (and this always comes up when discussing the subject) a “lesbian bisexual” — which defies logic because a “lesbian” is a “homosexual female” and a “homosexual” human is sexually attracted to only the same gender. But, of course, don’t let reality get in the way making sense.

  83. Lenni says:

    I believe much of this boils down to a combination of improper communication via dishonesty on the part of experimenters (NOT actual bisexuals mind you)and insecurities many lesbians have that can be worsened by the hetero-standard world.
    The main issue seems to be that women and people in general do not tend to enjoy being cheated, baited or toyed with emotionally. People who actually ARE merely experimenting with their sexuality are often less than forthright about this fact for fear of rejection. Many lesbians know this on some level and are thus on the lookout for women who may intend something different from what they say. Though I am a lesbian, I have been looked upon with such skepticism from other lesbians firstly for being young and secondly for having long hair (now in dreads so there goes that :P ) Labeling oneself “bisexual” can add a sense of one’s sexuality being seen as more “official” than simply being honest about one’s intentions but doesn’t have the feeling of finality the term “lesbian” has. Experimenters know that most lesbians AND most true bisexuals are not willing to simply satisfy their curiosity via a casual fling or deal with someone who may not be sure of their identity. They know that the ones who ARE open to casual sex would have to deal with the possibility of being the source of someone’s regret. Especially with the stereotype of lesbians as sexual aggressors and predators who take advantage of the young or inexperienced, this can be a very troubling, guilt-inducing position to be in. All of this, combined with the relative invisibility of bisexual women in committed relationships with either sex leads to the word “bisexual” being assigned to the wrong group of people.

    Aside from that, what I truly don’t understand is the emphasis on the gender of the person a bisexual woman dates AFTER breaking up with a woman. First of all relationships between bisexual women and lesbians fail for MANY reasons other than “she needed a man.” This reeks of displacing the real issues of the relationship onto factors the guilty parties couldn’t control i.e. their orientation. Secondly, WHY does it MATTER who they date after they break up with you? A bisexual woman may leave you for a woman, or for a man, or may simply remain single or may date a slew of people of either gender thereafter. Why is there such a fixation on who she ends up settling down, growing old and dying with? Why is there even such a fixation on her personal life so long after the relationship ends? That’s just unhealthy.

  84. Lara says:

    Another thing is that there are so many girls/ young women who label themselves as bisexual when they are not just because they make out with a girl or two at parties to impress guys.
    That annoys me as someone who actually is attracted to people of both genders because I always get the ‘you’re young, you don’t know what you want yet’ or ‘well, I don’t think someones really bisexual until they have slept with people of both genders’ thats not how it works.
    They also forget that orientation, for most people is not a choice.

  85. Lenni says:

    “They also forget that orientation, for most people is not a choice.”

    Agreed. I can understand that type of attitude from homophobic straight people who simply don’t understand, but many lesbians who in their own cases are well aware of orientation not being a choice seem to ignore that fact when it comes to bisexuality. It’s quite sad really.

  86. Claire says:

    I am thankful for this post as I’ve experienced considerable biphobia. I knew I was bi when I was about 12 but it took me many years to finally have a relationship with a woman, who was a lesbian. The whole thing was stressful. When I told my mates (many of whom are gay), they were made up and announced that I had ‘turned’ and I was a lesbian, one of my mates even said I must be a lesbian, not bi, because I like to have long term relationships instead of casual sex (?!). If I corrected them and said that in fact I thought I was bisexual, they reacted negatively (even the straight ones!) like I was being homophobic and also kidding myself. Added to this my girlfriend constantly made sarcy comments about my sexuality and refused to believe that I was really into the relationship. She kept saying I was ‘straight’ and making fun of me, accusing me of still fancying blokes etc. In the end I finished it because I was sick of all the crap I was getting from everyone. She then took this as ‘proof’ that I was actually straight. Never mind the fact that the next person I pulled was a woman!

    After we finished, my friends kept referring to me as ‘gay’ and when eventually I started going out with a man, they acted like I had suddenly become really boring and mainstream. They were actually disappointed in me. One of my lesbian friends said “oh so did you come in to your family then?” (I had previously told my parents I was in a relationship with a woman) and I had to tell her, no, I told them that I’m bisexual.

    When I told the man I was dating that I am bi, he reacted badly and refused to get into bed with me (!) and figured that I ‘must be gay’ and that it was only a matter of time before I left him for a woman. So I finished it with him as well.

    When I was then single and wanted to meet either men or women, I went on a lesbian dating site and discovered that many women specified ‘no bisexuals’. I felt slighted by this and pretty annoyed, I felt that how dare they assume an experience with a bisexual will necessarily be a bad one? They don’t even know me! I felt compelled to pursue meeting men rather than women because I didn’t want to experience any more biphobia. I felt that the lesbian world was quite closed off to people like me, and it saddened me.

    In the end the next person I met who I fancied was a fella, who I’m still with and very happy (he is not homophobic, or biphobic!). Now my family and friends purely see me as straight, and I can’t be bothered to correct them.

    I guess my point is that I wish people had treated me as an individual, and those around me had not been in such a rush to define my sexuality for me as either gay or straight, when I see myself as something in between! As for the reasons for biphobia, well, anyone can be messed around by anyone, it doesn’t matter what sexuality you are. I’ve been out with bisexual men and they were no more likely to mess me about than the straight ones. It’s just prejudice, pure and simple.

  87. RadFemHedonist says:

    Asteroid, why on earth are you presuming that bisexual women just choose to be bi? Are we straight pretending to be bi, or gay pretending to be bi, or are we actually promiscuous demons from a pit in an art college somewhere? I have news for you: women can get sexually transmitted infections too, from other women or from men. I am, in fact, sick of the whole sexuality as political ideology thing, I like other born homosapiens in my appropriate age range sexually, emotionally and intellectually, regardless of what genital configuration they have, and it’s not something I can just switch off and on as is convenient, hey, maybe you’d like to have a go at aspies like myself, because we have sometimes been said to be less concerned with gender roles and a clear straight-gay divide because of our wacky lack of adherence to social convention! What you are saying is nothing more than misandry (men are diseased and unhealthy, even if they do such things as using condoms and having STI checkups regularly!) and misogyny (women are bad for liking sex and are polluting themselves by having it) and biphobia (because bi women can’t possibly be interested in safe sex and are all just experimenting, and they want to force lesbians to have sex with them and oh yeah they’re eeeeeeviiillll and they have cooties). Further more, I fail to see how having sex with someone who has had sex with a man is the same as having sex with that man, do you feel that way about women who are raped or sexually assaulted by men? Are five year olds who kiss each other being molested by each other’s biological mothers (who, after all, did carry them around inside themself for nine months before passing them through their vagina, unless they had a cesarean section)? There is a difference between a sexual orientation and applying a purity test to all the women you meet to make sure they haven’t been contaminated by men, and I think you’ve gotten the two mixed up. To the writer of the article, I appreciate the subject matter but it’s not as if all lesbians hate bisexuals, I know plenty of lesbians who most definitely do not (I attend an LGBTU youth group). Also, I see a trend towards ageism in the hatred of bisexuality, as if it’s just another thing that all the hip kids are doing, like iPods, l33tsp3ak, rap-hop music, changing your hairdo each week or worst of all, atheism (note I don’t object to any of the listed items, behaviours or thoughts, in fact I use/am/like all of them except for the hairdo thing, short and minimal time spent is how I like it).

  88. Asteroid says:

    ” Asteroid, why on earth are you presuming that bisexual women just choose to be bi? ”

    Did you read the comment where I wrote that everyone is emotionally bisexual? However, sexually bisexual is a different matter?

    The split moment you ask yourself: (Event One) I like him, should I have sex with this man or (Event Two) I like her, should I have sex with this woman? — you are making a bisexual choice.

    ” Are we straight pretending to be bi, or gay pretending to be bi, or are we actually promiscuous demons from a pit in an art college somewhere? ”

    Not at all. I just think you’re fvcked-up. Stuck somewhere between whatever feels good now and Dante’s Inferno.

    ” I have news for you: women can get sexually transmitted infections too, from other women or from men. I am, in fact, sick of the whole sexuality as political ideology thing, I like other born homosapiens in my appropriate age range sexually, emotionally and intellectually, regardless of what genital configuration they have, and it’s not something I can just switch off and on as is convenient, hey, maybe you’d like to have a go at aspies like myself, because we have sometimes been said to be less concerned with gender roles and a clear straight-gay divide because of our wacky lack of adherence to social convention! What you are saying is nothing more than misandry (men are diseased and unhealthy, even if they do such things as using condoms and having STI checkups regularly!) and misogyny (women are bad for liking sex and are polluting themselves by having it) and biphobia (because bi women can’t possibly be interested in safe sex and are all just experimenting, and they want to force lesbians to have sex with them and oh yeah they’re eeeeeeviiillll and they have cooties). ”

    (A) I would never have a “go” at anyone like you because I stop, look, listen, and ask questions. And if I so much as get a hint of bisexuality, I walk away. Didn’t know and want you before, don’t need to know and want you still. (B) Sexuality becomes “political” when people such as yourself insist that you must be not simply tolerated, but embraced by those who want nothing to do with you. (C) Men, as far as I’m concerned, are dogs. If society in general were to give them the thumbs-up, they would fvck anything that moves. It’s their nature. Bisexual men lie to heterosexual women about their true nature and infect them with HIV. Gay men ride bareback and play Russian Roulette with their lives and the lives of other gay men because wearing a “glove” doesn’t feel real. Heterosexual men dip their wicks with prostitutes or other women on the side, then pass gonorrhea or syphilis to clueless girlfriends or wives. Men could be trusted to wear condoms and have regular STD checkups? In movies and television portrayals, sure. In real life, that’s not the majority data you’ll find at STD health clinics. (D) Misogyny? Look the word up before using it. “Chauvinism” is what you were reaching for — but you’d still be wrong. Women should have all the sex they want, as much as they want, with anyone they want. However, I reject bisexuality as a novel fluid definition of nouvelle homosexuality.

    ” Further more, I fail to see how having sex with someone who has had sex with a man is the same as having sex with that man, do you feel that way about women who are raped or sexually assaulted by men? ”

    Everytime you have sex with someone, you also have sex with all the sexual partners that preceded you. It’s there in the experience, the emotions, the curiosity, the drive — and whatever still lingers. A bisexual woman who has sex with women after having sex with men (one year ago, six months ago, one week ago, yesterday) is exposing them to their sexual history. (Women who are raped or sexually assaulted by men do not will themselves upon them. They do not consent. It is not a sexual encounter. It is violence. They are victims. Period.)

    Additionally, for 20 years I have attended the memorials for one too many gay men who have died of AIDS — and because I have been out of the closet for that long I have met many members of the Gay and Lesbian community and have, consequently, known of the death from AIDS of a gay man they knew. Yet, in all these years I have not lost a single lesbian friend or acquaintance to the disease. They have died of cancer, or ALS, or heart disease, or lupus, or multiple sclerosis — but not a one because of AIDS. On the other hand, because I’ve been actively involved in HIV/AIDS awareness, I have known heterosexual women who contracted the disease from their male sexual partners. Peddle your ignorance and wishful thinking with someone else.

    ” Are five year olds who kiss each other being molested by each other’s biological mothers (who, after all, did carry them around inside themself for nine months before passing them through their vagina, unless they had a cesarean section)? There is a difference between a sexual orientation and applying a purity test to all the women you meet to make sure they haven’t been contaminated by men, and I think you’ve gotten the two mixed up. To the writer of the article, I appreciate the subject matter but it’s not as if all lesbians hate bisexuals, I know plenty of lesbians who most definitely do not (I attend an LGBTU youth group). Also, I see a trend towards ageism in the hatred of bisexuality, as if it’s just another thing that all the hip kids are doing, like iPods, l33tsp3ak, rap-hop music, changing your hairdo each week or worst of all, atheism (note I don’t object to any of the listed items, behaviours or thoughts, in fact I use/am/like all of them except for the hairdo thing, short and minimal time spent is how I like it). ”

    Five year olds? You do like to reach for straws, don’t you. Contrary to your twist, I do not “hate” bisexuals. I simply have no respect for them. I have no choice but to put up with them and let them be because it’s the same as the least that I expect from general society in regards to lesbians and gay men. As far as I’m concerned, bisexuals can fvck each other’s brains out to their hearts’ content. But as a homosexual woman — a lesbian — I say to you and other bisexuals: keep pushing all you want, but I and others like me will continue to push back. When all is said and done, the bottom line is that you need us more than we need you.

    ["Thank you" to the powers that be at lesbilicious for not censoring people's opinions.]

  89. Lenni says:

    “Not at all. I just think you’re fvcked-up.”
    How very poignant. Very logical and clear.

    “Sexuality becomes “political” when people such as yourself insist that you must be not simply tolerated, but embraced by those who want nothing to do with you.”

    Of course! How silly of anyone to want to be all “political” and try to do away with something as benign and lovely as prejudice?

    “Men, as far as I’m concerned, are dogs. If society in general were to give them the thumbs-up, they would fvck anything that moves. It’s their nature.”

    Um…who do you think society is 50% MADE OF and for the most part RUN by? Despite society being grossly patriarchal, men have NOT given themselves the thumbs up to have relations with everything in sight. They have the means to do so but DON’T. So much for that point. In a situation with the proven absence of STI’s, if you imagine having sex with a bisexual woman and all you can think of is being contaminated with imaginary man cooties, this quite frankly reeks of unresolved personal issues which in the grand scheme of the issue, are irrelevant to logical discussion.

    “Contrary to your twist, I do not “hate” bisexuals. I simply have no respect for them.”
    Well then that’s MUCH better. You see “hate” is a problem but when people claim to have no respect for an entire population of people the vast majority of whom are unknown to you this is of course, a perfectly acceptable and logical approach to the situation.

    Step back for a second, stop foaming at the mouth and take a look at what you’re saying. Your poorly supported blanket judgments and vitriol seem to me to be reminiscent of every other nasty form of blind fanatical prejudice. It’s no better and no more righteous than homophobia or racism.

    “keep pushing all you want, but I and others like me will continue to push back.”

    What???

  90. asteroid says:

    ” “Not at all. I just think you’re fvcked-up.”
    How very poignant. Very logical and clear. ”

    What’s the matter? Forgot the original question? Well, then, fine: they are “demons.”

    ” Of course! How silly of anyone to want to be all “political” and try to do away with something as benign and lovely as prejudice? ”

    Tolerance is the opposite of prejudice. Don’t believe me? Look up the definition.

    ” Um…who do you think society is 50% MADE OF and for the most part RUN by? Despite society being grossly patriarchal, men have NOT given themselves the thumbs up to have relations with everything in sight. ”

    The other 50% is female — 90% of which is heterosexual. Societal values as a whole are based on what’s good for the family; therefore (in Western civilization, at least), women are intrinsically involved in setting societal standards. Rampant sexuality is antithetical to the family unit and the family unit is what is valued most overall. Progeny is of primary importance to most males and to have successful progeny you must provide some sort of social stability. The patriarchy is only following what it knows is ultimately best for it.

    However, prostitutes and mistresses exist because males are sexually-wired animals. Houses of prostitution are money-makers precisely because of it. And if you’re up close and personal with gay men, then you also know about their “parties.”

    ” You see “hate” is a problem but when people claim to have no respect for an entire population of people the vast majority of whom are unknown to you this is of course, a perfectly acceptable and logical approach to the situation. ”

    Hatred is a weapon. And while I may not respect bisexuals, I do not stop them nor intend to stop them from indulging their so-called nature. Major difference. I don’t need to know “an entire population” before forming an opinion because the subject is only about the lifestyle lived by bisexual women and how it affects lesbians. Which I’ve already expressed my opinion about.

    ” Your poorly supported blanket judgments and vitriol seem to me to be reminiscent of every other nasty form of blind fanatical prejudice. It’s no better and no more righteous than homophobia or racism. ”

    Rubbish. Someone who can’t tell the difference between “Kill Faggots” and “No Blacks Allowed” — and my rejection of bisexuals — is someone who is easily seduced by mass hysteria.

  91. Lenni says:

    “I don’t need to know “an entire population” before forming an opinion because the subject is only about the lifestyle lived by bisexual women and how it affects lesbians.”
    The problem Therefore you made a judgment on an entire group based on the ones you met and had a problem with.

    “Tolerance is the opposite of prejudice. Don’t believe me? Look up the definition.”

    I don’t believe you and I DID look it up.

    tolerance:
    The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and *respecting* the beliefs or practices of others.[emphasis mine]
    (Which you have repeatedly openly admitted to NOT doing.)

    prejudice:

    1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. CHECK

    2. A preconceived preference or idea. CHECK

    3. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See synonyms at predilection. CHECK

    4. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. CHECK AGAIN

    “Someone who can’t tell the difference between “Kill Faggots” and “No Blacks Allowed” — and my rejection of bisexuals — is someone who is easily seduced by mass hysteria.”

    What you and many others don’t seem to understand is that a person doesn’t have to go as far as to call for the deaths of everyone of a certain group in order to be bigoted. Many people were and some still are afraid of catching imaginary black cooties through contact with them…kinda like man-cootie phobia.

  92. asteroid says:

    Seems like you have an addiction for the word “cootie”.

    Boredom is an unfortunate affliction to impose upon a thread, and to continue this useless back-and-forth between persons who don’t know each other and couldn’t care less will be the ruin of it.

    I’ll end my participation in this nowhere-to-go discussion with this: nothing I’ve written has changed, nor will. In this space I speak only for myself, but I am not alone in such sentiment. Bisexual women = men in the bedroom closet. And as a lesbian, men in the bedroom (in any shape or form) is anathema to female homosexuality.

  93. Coralie says:

    This article, for me, seems to sanction Bi-Phobia, describing Lesbians as a political movement is to me, franky, a bit disgusting. This is like pigeon Christians as all anti-abortion and so on. Lesbian: n.

    A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.

    It is that simple. That there should be a sanction cult of bi-phobic Lesbians makes me dizzy. Although there are many explanations, reasons, approaches and excuses for their thoughts and behaviours we can NEVER sanction these attitudes. Some of the comments on the article are deeply disturbing to me. I suppose in the same way that many Feminists criticise women who express a preference for “traditional” family roles, Lesbians fear those who ‘revert’ to an attraction to males and label it peversion or patriarchy. I feel however, that this is like “back where they came from” racism. ‘They can be bi-sexual, we won’t stop them but they should do it somewhere else, and we don’t approve’ it’s backpedalling from how far we’ve come, and it’s the kind of attitude that allowed Jewish neighbours to be rounded up and executed in Nazi germany. If you don’t like the comparison, if you have ever considered lmiting any other individual’s choices to be (who wasn’t lmiting yours) or you’ve been limited yourself. Read this and tell me it isn’t one of the truest things ever written… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

    “When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    Then they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out for me.

    (martin niemoller)

  94. Chantai says:

    I would like to know who made lesbians scholars on sexuality! I would LOVE to read their thesis on lesbianism!! IF they had one, and actually believed it, they would find it is very similar to bisexuals and heterosexuals. You see, the idea is to be who you are. A lesbian saying a bisexual doesn’t “technically exsist” is the same as a het saying lesbianism doesn’t exist… When I started doing my research concerning the glBt community, I only wanted to involve myself with a community who not only allowed you to be who you are, a community who fights for the rights of people (not just lesbians), a community who does not judge, a community who is compassionate and all about love, but also a community who understands how it feels to be attracted to and love beautiful women. a community where it’s ok to be able to say how much you admire women and their beauty, their intelligence, their strength, their love, their style, their hair, their bodys, their struggles, and their determination to be greater than the role society has us in. Yet, in my research, i’ve only found a divided community who spews just as much hatred as the people they are fighting against! Lesbians become outraged when someone tells them they can’t naturally be a lesbian …yet they turn around and tell bi’s they can’t be bisexual. very hypocritical! To discriminate and say, I’ll have nothing to do with those “bis”, is the same as a het saying i’ll have nothing to do with “the gays” or a racist saying i’ll have nothing to do with those (insert race here). This type of thinking breeds ignorance. Just as it is ignorant for a heterosexual to speak on homosexuals’ behalf, being they have true knowledge of being homosexual, it is ignorant for homosexuals to speak “truths” on bisexuals.

  95. Chantai says:

    there is a lot of ignorance in the lesbian community concerning bisexuals, I agree with previous posts there are people who call themselves bisexual because they thought some girl was cute…..or because they’re “experimenting” or because they are straight but curious..or maybe they’ve been intimate with another female and liked it. but, in my opinion, a true bisexual is the the epitome of the lgbt movement. the whole point of the movement is to not be defined by any group of people, to be who you are, and live love. bisexuals are not forced into categorization! we love because we love a persons soul. to know it’s ok to love a woman. its ok to love a man. its ok to be who you are. to not be bound by “titles” . We have the right as women to love whoever we want. all this talk in the lesbian community about cheating bisexuals…. go and read your own blogs…i do. their’s cheating in EVERY type of relationship! it’s not exclusion to one group. there are also long term relationships in these groups as well. to ASSume bisexuals main objective in life is to trick, use, and abuse lesbians need to get over themselves! notice i’m not using absolutes….that’s because i know not all lesbians feel this way. It’s completely hilarious to me to see a community (glbt) who fight for the same freakin causes be sooo divided and discriminatory!!! lol!! oh…if you use a strap on your not a real lesbian…why not get the real thing….. oh…if you still have your genital parts…your not a real trans…..oh if you like men and women…ur just a greedy slut… oh..ur a femm….ill ur a butch..ur not a lesbian..u just wanna be a man…. it’s disgusting and it makes me sick. people mind ur own business and take care of urselves. the true fight, in my opinion, should be:

    THE RIGHT TO LIVE YOUR LIFE AS YOU SEE FIT WITHOUT BEING JUDGE BY PRICKS WHO HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME THAN JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE! AFTER ALL…IT IS UR EFFIN LIFE!!!!!!!!

  96. Leanne says:

    wow well writed, i likes the “golden lesbian” part cos thts wat i’m :D

  97. crash says:

    I am currently dating a bisexual woman and having a really hard time accepting her bisexuality. I am a lesbian. It makes me sick to hear about her past bf’s. I am always wondering if i am just an experiement. She is still learning about her sexuality. I am trying to be strong and open minded, but I am not sure I can hold on. Argh..wish it was easier.

  98. Eso says:

    Here’s a great story, about 11 years ago my partner and I went to Good Vibrations. Our objective was to find a a nice fitting piece for her rig. So, we are looking at the various sized, shapes and colors doing some serious debating. We turn to this woman next to us and asked her what she thought of the “centaur” model we had been looking at. The woman looked at it and said, “no, it has too many striations.” It has been an ongoing joke for years now.

    Yeah we bought it, she’s a butch, I’m a bisexual and she doesn’t care…I love that she packs and we are a perfect fit.

    I am profoundly glad I have a life mate that loves me for who I am and not who they think I should have slept with.

    I have made it a life goal to be honest with people. I am bisexual in a relationship with a woman. As a matter of fact most of my relationships have been with women but not exclusively.

    Now, let’s talk about Polyamory.

    Namaste,
    Eso

  99. Mac says:

    Wow.
    This thread is *amazing*. First I’d like to thank all of the posters for their honesty. For a straight guy,it’s been eye opening. I really didn’t realize how much flak bisexual women caught from the strictly lesbian community. This is in spite of the fact that my sister is bi, my ex-wife is bi and I’ve been friends with both bisexual women and men.

    I’ve always known that anyone not strictly hetero has a rough time of it. You can’t know anyone that isn’t strictly hetero and not know that. But I *never* would’ve guessed that so many in the gay community have such hard feelings towards anyone who isn’t *just like them*.

    To anyone who thinks that bisexuals are bed-hopping tramps, sorry an “experimenter” made you feel bad but don’t judge everyone you meet based on that experience. My sister – who is incredibly monogamous – has been dumped by both straight men and gay women. Not for cheating, but because she wouldn’t “choose a team”. Yes, that’s the reason she was given in both instances. Not “I’m not in love with you any more” or “I’ve met someone else.” The *idea* that she has a physical attraction to both men and women squigged them out. It’s a bullshit attitude. Get over yourselves. Move on.

    Asteroid, I can’t believe that you hold the attitudes you do and consider yourself to be an open minded person. You’re a bigot. Not because you’re not attracted to men. I can easily accept the fact that you have no sexual attraction for men. I don’t either. We’re hairy, can be too rough-edged and far too many guys fall back on bullshit machismo instead of acting like decent human beings. That being said, we’re not all disease-ridden, rutting pigs. That isn’t to say that the rutting pigs don’t exist. They do. But here’s a little hint – there are plenty of women who behave the same way. I’ve ended more than one relationship because my partner couldn’t keep it in her pants. Here’s another hint – I’ve known *lesbians* who’ve ended relationships with their *lesbian partners* for the same damned reason. Don’t pretend that being a woman who is a lesbian somehow puts you above human weakness. It’s insulting to everyone, yourself included. Oh, and thanks for hating me because of my gender and orientation. Did I mention that I’m white? There, something else for you to hate me for. What the hell, lady?

  100. k says:

    What a huge range of attitudes are displayed here!

    I’m bi, and I feel great compassion for lesbians who dislike/exclude bi people or refuse to accept our orientations as valid. In every case I’ve ever experienced or read of (including those posts above expressing such sentiments), it’s been a fear reaction. It’s been about having a group of people to project all the bad stuff onto; a group just close enough to be within lashing out range, and just different enough to justify the behaviour. Every argument I’ve ever heard about bisexuals being untrustworthy can be reasonably shown to apply to straight and queer people: we’ve all known sexual predators of various orientations; we’ve all known people who’ve used others as experiments; we’ve all known people who’ve passed for straight/white/[insert privileged group here] while taking the support of the community for granted; we’ve all known people who’ve been confused and fvcked up and so full of self-loathing they’ve hurt those around them; and we’ve all known people who’ve been so oblivious to any other perspective that they’ve made blanket assumptions about how others must feel/behave/think.

    The thing is, when those people are “us”, it’s easy to separate them out from the sane majority; when those people are “other”, it’s so easy to fall back on fear and lazily project onto the whole group.

    One of the hardest things in the world is to just meet people where they are instead of trying to shove them into the pigeonhole we want them to inhabit. Having scapegoats is easier than facing our fears.

    The butch lesbian who, 15 years ago, assaulted me within 5 minutes of our first meeting while screaming about what she perceived as my heterosexual privilege was wrong to do so. But she was also someone in incredible pain. She had been clearly “different” all her life, and had had no respite from homophobia. There I was, pinging away on her queerdar, and looking pretty femme that day, and she discovered I had fallen in love with a person presenting as male. My queerness was not the right kind of queer for her; she wanted my queerness to be the same as hers, because that would make her feel safer in the short term. The fact that straight people immediately lump bi people in with lesbians and gay men never crossed her mind; that my continuing to make a point of being out was forcing people to rethink their ideas, and even putting me at risk in some places, didn’t register. I was not queer in the way she was, and so it was safe to pour her rage and fear out at me – I wasn’t a real feminist, a real queer, a real person to her, but a cardboard cutout representing all the things she wanted and hated and feared. It was another bi woman who pulled her off me and comforted her, and let her sob it out. At the time, I was too petrified to think, never mind defend myself physically or verbally.

    It was such a terrifying experience that lesbian contempt for bi people was threatening to me for a good couple of years. Up until then, my experience had been of a supportive and diverse community of friends of all orientations, gender identities, and configurations of relationships (from monogamous to various kinds of poly relationships). It took a long time to get past that fear that any lesbian I might meet (except through the safety filter of my friends) could use me as a scapegoat for all their bottled up fear and rage – until I realised I was becoming like the lesbians who diss bi people, and just projecting my fear out onto a specific group instead of being open to them as people. I had to grow up, rapid, and face the fact that my fear was dictating my life, and that this was unacceptable. Being open and accepting means putting fear aside, and that’s the toughest thing for me. It’s also the best thing I have ever done for myself – when I let fear drive me, I miss out on life, but when I put it aside, I meet wonderful people who challenge and support and inspire me.

    We need community. We need support. The world is not as homo/bi/transphobic as it was, but it is still important to have some kind of queer space for us to sort through who we are without pressure from the dominant culture. But that space needs to be inclusive and supportive, honest and constructive. It needs to be grown up. There’s a great article by Ellyn Ruthstrom which cannily points out that, far from bi people “using” lesbian and gay space, lesbians and gay men often use bi space as a safe, non-judgmental place to sort through their identities until they’re comfy with their particular form of queerness: http://www.bilerico.com/2009/03/bisexuality_whos_using_whom.php. It’s certainly a perspective that matches my experience. Most of all, it reinforces – yet again – just how important it is for us to recognise and deal with our fears, no matter how painful it might be, how threatening to our self-images. We need a safe space for people to learn, adapt, and grow into themselves.

    And that means we all have to be open to the idea that we might have got some stuff wrong, that we might gain from new perspectives, that change and growth should be welcomed even when it means leaving treasured assumptions behind. Without that openness, there is no real honesty, no real respect, no real support, just illusions of them.

  101. Bex says:

    I’m a ‘gold star’… what a silly name, i just happen to not be attracted to men and am in a wonderful relationship with a bisexual woman who previously was mainly with men but now is more into women. I love her very much regardless of her sexuality. I also have many friends who are bi,straight gay, whatever. It oesn’t matter it’s the person that does. My point is basically… not all lesbians hate bi people.

    On a sightly different point, I’ve been messed around by other ‘gold stars’ before. Liking only men doesn’t make them less likely to cheat!

    Much love :-)

  102. Bex says:

    i meant liking only WOmen

  103. Sue says:

    I’ve just discovered this really long-running and interesting thread and thought I’d add to it.

    I am a 52 year old woman who has identified as bisexual since I was 16, having been aware of bi feelings since I was a child. Over the course of my life I have had relationships with women and men – both long-term and casual – and for the last 14 years have been with a man. This is not because it was easier, except in the sense that there are more men available for relationships than there are women!

    However, I identify as bisexual and always will. This is because of my past, where I feel I belong, who I consider to be my community, who I look at in the street, etc. It is about potentiality, not what I am doing right this minute.

    I have had a good share of anti-bi sentiment directed to me over the years – although very very little these days – from people of all sexualities. It hurt most from lesbians, as I had thought they would understand. But I suppose I have earned my dues, as it were, and also can give as good as I get if necessary.

    In 2009, being a bi woman is quite different to what it was when I was young. For instance, the faux-bisexual thing is only around 10 years old – and now it is absolutely everywhere. To start with, I thought the increased visibility for bi women was good, but now it drives me up the wall. People think that that is what bisexuality is, when it is just a play version of it.

    Connected to that, but not the same, is the increased (there are stats) likelihood of women sexually experimenting with other women. This is not wrong in and of itself – but can obviously be painful for people who are unwillingly or unknowingly caught up in it. I have been experimented with, and it was horrible. But it is not necessarily a strictly bi thing.

    Also, as has been clear from the comments above, some people are emotionally/sexually bi but some see their bisexuality as a purely sexual thing. This is perhaps more often true of men, but certainly of women too. I have no problem at all with that – except that many (non-bi) people see bisexuality as only being about sex for all of us who identify as bi.

  104. k says:

    “For instance, the faux-bisexual thing is only around 10 years old – and now it is absolutely everywhere. To start with, I thought the increased visibility for bi women was good, but now it drives me up the wall. People think that that is what bisexuality is, when it is just a play version of it.”

    I think this is the inevitable result of living in a sexist consumer society. Women’s sexuality is quickly commodified – mainstreamed in easily packaged and controlled ways. Modern burlesque was all about subverting that, but it’s gone mainstream not as a subversive force, but as a way of commodifying and controlling it again. Images of female bisexuality and lesbianism are more socially palatable because our sexualities have been mainstreamed in terms of male desire.

    Perhaps it’s a phase we have to endure. Perhaps once the shiny newness of it wears off, there’ll be more awareness of the fakery of it. But… ick.

  105. karen says:

    ‘Lesbian’ means so much more than just being attracted to people of the same gender as yourself. It’s a subculture.

    I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

  106. k says:

    “”‘Lesbian’ means so much more than just being attracted to people of the same gender as yourself. It’s a subculture.”

    I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit.”

    You don’t think there’s a lesbian subculture or community which lesbians find supportive and safe, and which helps to boost confidence when society at large can be so oppressive and tough to deal with as a queer person?

  107. nia says:

    being bisexual is not just a phase and i loved how this artical put it because i am bisexual and it has never been a phase to me. since i was little i liked both and now i am with a guy but i still like girls, its sad to here that some gays or lesbians have those fealings about bisexuals but all of the ones i know are very kind, i honestly think we are all working together we all somehow want the same thing, with one of you we have likeing guys in common and with the other we have likeing girls in common. being bisexual is hard, its hard finding somebody who excepts you. bu thats life, we all already have it hard whats the point of fighting each other

  108. David Lott says:

    I haven’t read all of the comments above so perhaps this was addressed. But beyond the factors of culture and the psychology of attraction there lies the reality that heterosexual privilege is real and whatever way a person self-identifies, if that person is involved in a heterosexual relationship, there are elements of privilege that come with that. Obviously, living openly as an out bisexual unapologetically helps to mitigate some of that privilege.

  109. K says:

    “if that person is involved in a heterosexual relationship, there are elements of privilege that come with that.”

    This is a good point. Just as, if you don’t happen to fit the stereotype of a lesbian or gay man there are elements of privilege that come with it. If you’re white, there are elements of privilege; if you are wealthy, there are elements of privilege; if you come from an educated family, there are elements of privilege. Owning our privilege is something we all have to do, even though it can knock our self-image as put-upon or victims, because it empowers us by allowing us to see our lives more clearly and get on with working to further equality.

    “Obviously, living openly as an out bisexual unapologetically helps to mitigate some of that privilege.”

    Well, when everyone around you knows about it, it can make you a target for biphobic lesbians and gay men as well as for biphobic straight people (who, for the most part, just lump all queer folk together as being pretty much the same, regardless of what lesbians and gay men may think about bi people). So you not only lose your straight privilege, you can also lose the support of a community that’s supposed to be there to support people who are not straight. It’s all in how you play it and what your local area’s like.

  110. R.T. says:

    I first suspected I was attracted to both men and women when I was 11, and I came out as “bi” when I was 16. But the relentless pressure and disbelief from both gay and straight communities made me perpetually question myself and totally stunted my ability to explore who I really was in relation to other people. I was constantly feeling the need to “choose,” and when I finally decided I would just be gay, I fell in love with a man. It wrought havoc on my social identity, but luckily I didn’t cave to the pressure this time. We’re now married, and it’s only now, five years into our relationship, that I am finally truly comfortable with the fact that I am and always will be bisexual. My attraction to women has only grown stronger, along with my comfort with my sexuality in general, and it is due in large part to my relationship and my unbelievably supportive partner. My only regret – and it’s a big one – is that I wasn’t able to really be myself in this regard before I met him.

    Being in a married, perceived-as-hetero relationship does come with social privileges that I’m very aware of, and that my friends in non-hetero relationships are denied. That really pisses me off. But I also hold incredible resentment toward the purveyors of biphobia (“all bi men really just want to sleep with men, and so do all bi women,” losing friends/support network over hetero relationship, etc. etc.) which impinged for years on how I saw myself, on my relationships with other people and with my sexuality. It’s *my* private life, my relationships, and *my* body. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to sleep with me, but please keep your ignorant opinions to yourself. Like homophobia, it does real damage to real people. It’s taken me years to sort out the mess, and I know I’m not the only one.

  111. K says:

    “But I’m 27, have been a part of the LGBT community since I was 15, and have not met a ‘bisexual’ who has stuck around or carried on identifying bisexual for more than 5 years.”

    I’m 40, and almost every bi person I know has identified as bi for 15-25 years. It may be an age thing, or it may be that my social circle is made up of people who are so supportive of diversity that none of us have been pressured into “picking a side”, and so have gravitated to our authentic identities without fear of our close friends rejecting us.

    I’m with Ellyn Ruthstrom, when she wrote over at Bilerico Project:

    “One of the things I really value about the bi community is the way we provide a wonderful safe space for many lesbian and gay people in which to come out. What?! Don’t you mean the other way around? No, I’ve observed over many years that the bi community has been (and will continue to be) a fabulous warming-up stage for some people who later realize they are lesbian or gay or for those who know they are lesbian or gay but need to slowly acclimate to the queer scene. I consider it a valuable service to the greater LGBT community that we are happy to oblige…

    … From my own observations in bi support groups, I know that lesbian and gay individuals have “used” bi space to help them through the often excruciating experience of breaking down internalized homophobia, recognizing their true selves, and allowing others to see them for who they really are. And I don’t have a problem with that at all. Come in, have a seat, use us for whatever you need. We’re in this together.”
    [http://www.bilerico.com/2009/03/bisexuality_whos_using_whom.php]

    We’ll keep on being there for you, just like we always have, just like when the trans and bi people stood up and rioted at Stonewall in the 60s and a bi activist came up with the idea of Pride parades [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Howard]. We are all in this together.

  112. Tash says:

    wow. this discussion is amazing. im absolutely delighted that these issues have been highlighted and people gave voiced their opinions. i’ve been going through the comments these past nights and im amazed at the amount of prejudice received by bisexual people, especially considering how hard they have it.

    I had just come out, last year actually to some immediate family including my father and most people within my social circle, and i think that in this era with lesbian being so popularised and almost glamorous (it feels that way from where i’m from, sydney, where gay and lesbian celebrities are constantly making headlines) being lbgt is more socially acceptable. Its great that people are more accepting, but extremely frustrating for me especially due to women who classify as ‘bisexuals’ when they are in fact not.

    I have a real big problem of people labeling others but i think its human nature to label or categorize things in order to make sense of this world. I just think we need to get these labels right. One or two kisses with a person of the same sex does not instantly make you bisexual, you are ‘bi-curious’.

    The recent glamorisation of ‘being gay’ is extremely frustrating to me. Countless times ive been to clubs, even clubs that are known in the community to be ‘an officially gay arena’ and have found women wanting to experiment or be ‘gay’ for a little while because its ‘so in right now’. Thats fine if they are genuinely exploring their sexuality but for those who want to impress some guy with ‘i made out with 3 girls last night’ it is with those people that these labels become blurred. ‘bi-curious’ girls are instantly labelled bisexual then these bisexuals are automatically given a bad name.

    I got outed in highschool for being gay, lost many friends. Hated by so many people, most i didnt even know (it was a catholic school) and then a few years later after i had graduated and people like mtv host Ruby Rose (who is lesbian, and the hottest woman ever might i add) or one of the Veronicas (a popular australian act) declaring their bisexuality, or Alex Perry (the most demanded fashion designer in Aus at the moment) are spotlighted and ‘popular’ half of those people who hated me and thought i was the spawn of satan are now making out with other chicks every other week! Its just ridiculous and so aggravatingly annoying.

    Thats my first issue . :)

    Secondly and more to the point, ive been dumped by my first gf purely for the reason of being too ‘femme’. the fact that i loved her wasnt enough i suppose.

    And my most recent gf (who identified herself as bisexual) left me for a man. And she actually told me that she was with me because she was just ‘seeing how it is’. Thats one notch on her belt i suppose. She was in fact bi-curious, and if i had called her that she wouldnt have denied it.

    Bisexuals shouldnt have to get it so hard from both the straight and gay community. They feel twice the confusion, are twice as lost and spend most of their life trying to determine their sexuality because they just dont seem to fit with any one ‘side’- and thats all without external influence and pressure.

    I’m pushing 20, and have yet to have a good and loving relationship with a lesbian or a bi woman that i can trust.

    But hey. thats life. For gay AND straight and people.

  113. LizA says:

    After reading most of the comments on here, apparently I hate bis. Perhaps I think of them as filth, or it’s because they consort with “the filth”, or because they’re “experimenting”, or because they’ll have to choose someday, and what if they choose guys? Maybe I hate bis because I’m bigoted, because us lesbians are no better than those heteros out there.

    FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, SHUT UP. Don’t presume to know me, especially when we’ve never even met.

    If you want to give your opinion, then that’s fine (in fact, it’s awesome, but that’s a different topic altogether) but please don’t be so arrogant to believe that every single lesbian alive supports your world-view.

    I don’t define people by their sexuality. I don’t give a damn whether they’re gay or bi – they’re women that like women, and that’s plenty good enough for me.

    It’s fine if you think bis are scum, men are scum, etc (as long as you don’t try to force it on anyone). But don’t ever presume to think that everyone supports you, or that I, as a lesbian, will support you.

    Because honestly? If I had to choose between a bigoted lesbian and a bi gal, I think we can all guess who I’d choose.
    You, the prejudiced lesbian commenters, need me much more than I need you.

  114. Cathy Bryant says:

    My last girlfriend said that bi women were ‘straight really’ and bi men were ‘gay really’. The old oppression – to claim that we don’t exist. She also took me to various women-only events, which I thoroughly enjoyed except that her avowed reason was to make me ‘more gay’. In the end her unassailable ignorance – she was impervious to my pleas for respect for my sexuality – destroyed the relationship. I did meet some friendly lesbians but found so much of my ex’s attitude around that I’ve been seriously put off the LGBT scene – it seems that the B part isn’t supported. I have desired both men and women for thirty years, and all I want is not to experience prejudice because of that. The problems people have expressed with bisexuals here are mostly due to lying, failure to commit and cheating – hardly exclusively bisexual practices!

  115. K says:

    “I’m pushing 20, and have yet to have a good and loving relationship with a lesbian or a bi woman that i can trust.”

    Oh, Tash – it may not feel like it right now, but 19 is just the beginning. From the perspective of middle age, I assure you that if you work on enjoying your life and coming to know yourself better, love will happen along when it’s least expected. Live, and love will appear.

  116. Rachel Affleck says:

    Fantastic Artical, My last Girlfriend Was Bisexual, and then claimed that she was now a Lesbian because she prefered that lifestyle and everything hat came with it than bein Bisexual. But then when she used to go out with her ‘Stright’ friends out in the clubs, i found out she was flirting around with Men behind my back, and when i comfronted her she cliamed that it was only for her mate to get what her mate wanted from this guy =S. obvi i eneded it seeing no point in liars and her bein stubborn about me leaving her, stating she loved me more than anything, cryin, and other sad sob stories, when i left her she couldnt face bein a lesbian anymore and went with a guy..BUT then cheats on him with girls!! MESSED UP!!now to me i have no problems with Bisexuals but after that 10 months of confusion hell i could only be mates with them and which for good luck to whoever takes them on as lovers. iv now been with my partner for 6 months now, shes got everythin that attracts me to her,difference is this time is that shes a lesbian, and iv never been happier, relaxed and able to trust someone so much in my life.
    i found happiness in someone i wouldnt normal look at twice in that way, but foronce i did and id never turn back. =)

  117. misnomer says:

    The term “Bisexual Lesbian” is a misnomer. You are either bisexual, or a lesbian. Saying both makes no sense.

  118. K says:

    Rachel: you say, “now to me i have no problems with Bisexuals but after that 10 months of confusion hell i could only be mates with them and which for good luck to whoever takes them on as lovers.”

    I’m sorry you had a messed up relationship with a messed up person that affected you deeply. Everyone has had a dreadful relationship that hurt them profoundly and really knocked their self-esteem and ability to trust.

    It’s a shame that you’ve decided on this basis that bi women are all the same. I hope you don’t extend the same logic to lesbians – either that, or that no lesbian ever hurts you – or you’ll lose your entire pool of potential partners.

    Quite seriously, I’m assuming from your post that you’re young, with a whole long life ahead of you. You’ll see good and bad relationships a-plenty, and you’ll notice that no sex, gender identity or orientation has a monopoly on either.

    In the end, it’s not just bi women who lose out when lesbians decide that we’re all appalling creatures because they or a friend of a friend had a bad experience which they refuse to evaluate in the same way as a bad experience with a lesbian. It’s lesbians who lose out on the love and friendship of good bi women, too. And THAT’s messed up.

  119. S says:

    As a bi woman, I’m tired of all the hatred and misunderstandings and supposed stereotypical views of bisexuality. Both communities just don’t get it and want me to be the same as them. Lesbians hate us the most though.

    We just want to love and to be loved and accepted in return. Not all of us are unfaithful or betrayers!

    I think it would be better if I killed myself, then I wouldn’t have to live with the pain of being shunned and hated by Lesbian women and heterosexuals for the rest of my life.

  120. Marla says:

    For all the idiots who think female bisexuality doesn’t exist, read this: http://www.thetaskforce.org/TF_in_news/08_0227/stories/3_bisexuality_women.pdf

    Asteroiod: you obviously are a hypocrite who demands equal rights but won’t give them to others. You don’t deserve them yourself then. Maybe you should remember to take your xanax. You can push back all you want, but bisexuality is becoming much more accepted and there’s nothing you can do about it. As for us “needing you” it’s quite the reverse. There are much more of us than you, and without our support you’d realize how small your community is. And you’re about to b/c we’re forming our own very nice community where we don’t have to deal with mentals like you. And you’d be surpised how many femme lesbians we get. Secondly, I’m so tired of all your morons who go on and on about some woman ran off with a man-news flash, people of all orientations cheat. I’m sure you’ve had lesbians cheat on you-did you decide they were all bad too? It’s nothing but an excuse for bigotry. It really amazes me how some people can bitch so much about being oppressed and turn right around and do it themselves. When you do that, you are worse than the straight community, b/c at least they can claim ignorance of being “different”. Here’s a video that’s appropriate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEh1PcgHLqg

  121. anne says:

    Mine is more of a question than a comment. Why is it that lesbians much like men seem to prefer younger mates?

  122. I was never “biphobic” until I fell for and got involved with a straight girl who later found it easier to stick to men. Now I still think “we fall in love with people, not men or women” in a rational way, but I can’t help it: emotionally, I feel a bit angry when I see “one of our girls” returning to the safety of a relationship with a man. And since I don’t like men and their heads, it’s like those arrogant beings (men) who’ve had it easy for centuries are still put in a higher position by women themselves.

  123. jacqueline says:

    i totally agree either your flat out lesbian or your bisexual. no such thing as bi curious.as for me im bi so for you guys who say your just experimenting its a load of crap theres no such thing.

  124. rory says:

    I just came back from my date with a bi-woman (and yes I’d read this column) and frankly never again.
    Basically I had to hear her talk about the difficulty of finding men. And then quiz me about the last time I dated one!
    I’m a lesbian, it said so in my profile. I have 0 interest in men.

    I regard her as ‘Straight Women in a Drought’ I had a friend who did the very same thing. And then ranted about how lesbians were so judgemental about Bisexuals!
    Do I think all bisexuals are like this. No. I was nice today, gave her man-finding advice while she scurried away from me like I had cooties.
    And then I wrote to a nice lesbian girl for a date:)

  125. hansallyo says:

    This article is really good and help me gain a greater awareness of these issues.

    Personally, I think the sexual orientation spectrum is pretty accurate. It is rare to be 100% lesbian as it is rare to be 100% straight woman, most fall somewhere in between. I also think it is rare for someone to be exactly 50/50 or a “true” bisexual who equally attracted to both sexes. I feel most people are leaning one direction or another.

    My only problem as a lesbian is if a woman is bi and married, I’d really prefer her not indicated she wants to cheat on him with me. I’m not going to help someone cheat. That is all, and yes this has happened to me on more than one occasion, it isn’t just me believing a myth.

  126. James Uscoft says:

    As a straight, white man who has spent the last 13 years with a wonderful Bi-sexual woman, I stumbled across this article after discovering, to my horror that we had missed ‘Celebrate Bi-sexuality Day.’ (September the 23rd.) And whilst it is clear that almost every issue has already been covered and discussed in great detail, I feel compelled to add a few of my own opinions, even if they are greeted with little more than derision and scorn.

    I have spent the vast majority of my life fighting for ‘Equality & Individuality for ALL.’ So having never accepted or been comfortable with the idea of opposing ‘GLBT’ and ‘Heterosexual’ communities, it has been both reassuring and distressing to read the wide variety of opinions on display.

    Is Lesbianism defined by a woman’s sexual attraction to other women, or by her lack of sexual attraction to men?

    Is Lesbianism a sexual preference, a political ideology or a social community?

    Are ‘Femme/Lipstick’ Lesbians TRUE Lesbians or not?

    Are ‘Gold Star Lesbians’ superior, pure and untainted because they have never been attracted to men in any way shape or form?

    The wide variety of opinions, prejudices and attitudes within the Lesbian community itself reinforces my belief that ‘GLBT’ vs. ‘Straight’ is merely a line in the sand. That we are all individuals with our own desires and fears; our own bigotries and our own dreams. So indeed, should not the title of this article be, “Why do some women with a sexual preference for the same gender ‘Hate’ women with less rigid preferences?”

    When presented in this manner, we can begin to see how vague and ultimately meaningless the question becomes. And at the risk of offending those who perceive a conflict between ‘Heterosexuals’ and ‘Homosexuals,’ I would just like to suggest that this is the reason for the persecution, the distrust and the suspicion of Bi-sexual women within the Lesbian community.

    As an unbelievably tall man, I have been feared by many women for as long as I can remember.

    I speak softly and keep my distance, avoid excessive eye contact and do everything I can to avoid intimidating women in any way. But having also researched women’s attitudes towards men in feminist literature and on websites such as ‘I Hate Men.com,’ I have come to the obvious conclusion that I am not feared, disliked, mistrusted or even hated because of my height.

    At worst, as a straight, white English man, I am a part of the oppressive patriarchy that denies women’s rights on a daily basis. I support and encourage the murder and rape of women by consuming pornography. I am a rapist, because ‘ALL’ heterosexual intercourse is rape. And as a representative of the male ‘Species’ (the mutants who carry the defective Y chromosome) I am jointly responsible for almost everything bad in the world.

    Somewhere in between, I am as one person described ‘Just something that she passes on the street.’

    But in the majority of cases, regardless of the woman’s sexual preference, I and the rest of my gender appear to be regarded as being ‘From Mars.’

    I think with my penis, I am less able to feel sympathy, more like to cheat and thus spread disease, more violent and aggressive etc etc etc.

    No matter what form the fear, distrust or suspicion might take, the ‘line in the sand’ declares that I’m part of a group which is different from women. And whilst I was happy and not at all surprised to read that many Lesbians have no prejudice towards Bi-sexuals whatsoever, some posts and the article itself have confirmed what I have always feared.

    As well as referring to ‘Gold Star Lesbians’ and women who’ve slept with men but felt ‘Repentant,’ the author of the article describes Lesbianism as a ‘Subculture’ with its own haircuts, bars, music etc.

    It would take far to long for me to describe my analysis of ‘Society’ in this comment. But basically, it appears that in rejecting ‘Mainstream Society,’ SOME Lesbians have simply created another; a ‘Women Only’ club where men are perceived as outsiders, if not the actually as the enemy.

    Like any society, as the author explains, to express any differing desires and opinions may result in ostracism. So regardless of whether men are perceived as outsiders, oppressors, animals, or a ‘Rival Species to be Annihilated,’ some women seem to define their sexuality by their indifference to, their dislike, distrust, suspicion, fear and/or hatred of ‘Men.’

    I have no doubt that when ‘SOME’ Lesbians declare that they are ‘LESBIAN, FULL STOP!’ it is because they struggling to achieve their own ‘Group Defined’ ideal of Lesbianism.

    After all, why would anyone choose to identify herself as a ‘Gold Star Lesbian’ if she were not boasting about the fact that she had never ‘Crossed the Line?’

    Similarly, why would any women who now identify themselves as being Lesbians feel ‘Repentant’ about having sex with and being attracted to men in the past, unless their concept of ‘Lesbianism’ itself was defined by exclusion, not inclusion?

    In this context then, leaving aside many women’s fears about a ‘Bi-sexual Woman Leaving Me For a Man,’ it would appear that the prejudice towards Bi-sexuals is based on their continuing need for this ‘Line.’

    From women who don’t want to be ‘Contaminated’ by a lover who’s previously been with a man, to women who believe that all Bisexuals are oppressed, actually lesbian, actually straight, confused or that they could be Lesbians if they were ‘More Political,’ it appears that some Lesbian women are eager to maintain the ‘line in the sand.’

    Bi-sexuals, Bi-curious women, Lesbian women who are sometimes attracted to men and a thousand other variations seem to blur this clear distinction between ‘Male & Female,’ between ‘Lesbian & Straight.’ So as many other comments have stated time and time again, I believe that it’s time to ditch the labels and to accept that we are ALL different.

    “SAY IT OUT LOUD…I’M ME & I’M PROUD!”

  127. Teresa TF says:

    It’s true that to be absolutely gay or straight is the exception rather than the rule. Unfortunately, in this world people must always group everything into simple categories.
    “Lesbian” means whatever people decide it means. And if you ask a hundred different Lesbians to define what it means, then a lot of them will tell each other that they’re not ‘Proper Lesbians’ at all.
    They’re Femme Lesbians, they aren’t political enough, they use strap-on dildos so they’re really transexuals, they don’t hate men or straight women and on and on and on…
    It is very important for everyone to decide who fits into that group and who doesn’t, so that they can be sure of who is friend or foe.
    If you don’t fit into a person’s definition of a Lesbian, whatever that might be, but you are attracted to women, then you are bi-sexual. So the term bi-sexual really just means “other.”

  128. rory says:

    I went to a girl-only school, I liked it a lot, the girls were encouraged to achieve and be anything they wanted. We supported one another.

    I then went to a famous university where I excelled & routinely got called a “Bitch” every damn single year by some guy whose ego couldn’t cope with me being smarter…

    I wish I’d gone to Bryn Mawr.And yeah I prefer the company of women. Can you guess why?

  129. Teresa TF says:

    Rory- Your comment’s got nothing to do with anything!

    At my girl’s school, I only got bullied by the FEMALE teachers for the same reason, because I was smarter than them, and my male physics teachers helped me all the way.

    Your not ranting about being bullied for being bi or lesbian, it’s just the same old ‘MEN ARE ****’ speel that James was talking about before me.

    ONE GUY each year? OUT OF HOW MANY? And of course, no guys ever helped or supported you.

    Straight, gay, bi, trans or whatever, you ARE just a venemous, man-hating “BITCH!”

  130. James Uscroft says:

    Reading ‘Rory’s’ utterly baffling and irrelevant comment, followed by ‘Teresa TF’s’ insightful response, I feel that it has brought the meaning of my original post into sharp focus.

    As hard as I search the Internet, although I am by no means any kind of authority on the subject, I cannot find any equivalent of ‘Gold Star Lesbians’ in the Male Gay community, perhaps because the idea of having sex with women bares no kind of stigma within that group.

    From what I have read on the Gay Male equivalents of this website, whether men realise that they’re Gay after 30 years of heterosexual marriage or as soon as they hit puberty, it seems to make no difference whatsoever. But for a ‘Lesbian’ woman to even find a man attractive… the author of this article and some comments imply that this is almost mortal sin.

    Reading through the wealth of other comments on this page the other night, I was also deeply disturbed and baffled by an anecdote posted by one woman.

    As a Bi-sexual, she was assaulted by a Lesbian, grabbed by the throat and pinned to the wall of the nightclub until another Bi-sexual pulled her off. And yet, the woman still expressed great sympathy for the person who’d attacked her, because ‘We’re All in This Together.’ And as far as I can infer, her suggestion was that they’d both suffered at the hands of a common enemy; ‘Straight Men.’

    As a straight man myself, I realise that the rest of this comment will almost literally invite accusations of misogyny and homophobia. But at the end of the day, I can find only one answer to the question posed in the title of this article:

    “Lesbians who dislike, fear and/or hate men also dislike, fear and/or hate Bi-sexual women, simply because those women DON’T dislike, fear and/or hate men. Full Stop.”

    Again, I am no authority of any kind. But having researched the opinions of both men women from across the sexual spectrum, it is clear that ‘SOME’ Lesbian women define themselves by their indifference towards, their dislike, fear and/or hatred of men.

    This phenomenon of course is not limited to women with a particular sexual preference. The idea that ALL men, particularly straight men are incompetent, violent, emotionally crippled, sexually obsessed, rutting animals is so widespread that I have almost grown to expect it.

    The official badge on the homepage of ‘I Hate Men.com’ reads “I’m Not a Lesbian, But I Hate Men!” suggesting that at least some straight women define Lesbianism in this manner. And if this is the case, then is it not logical to assume that some Lesbians do as well?

    From what I have been able to discern from my limited research, some Lesbian women do indeed define themselves by their separation from, if not ‘Conflict’ with straight male society.

    In this conflict, Gay men appear to be perceived as ‘Allies’ because they share similar goals. But as men, they are still seen as being separate from the ‘Sisterhood’ of women who, by their sexual preferences and by choice, have consciously separated themselves from ‘Male’ society.

    Indeed, the article makes it clear that many self-proclaimed ‘Lesbians’ may actually be Bi-sexual, (Yikes?) only denying their attraction to men in order to remove themselves from ‘Patriarchal Domination.’ And when some Lesbians insist that Bi-sexuals could be Lesbians as well “If only they were more political,” do they not mean “If only they hated men and worked to overthrow their Oppressive Society.”

    As for straight women and Bi-sexual men in this apparent conflict of ‘Straight Men vs. Lesbians,’ the vast majority appear to be almost completely invisible and ignored.

    After all, Bi-sexual men are merely the ‘Oppressors’ who are attracted to other men in turn. And as for straight women, they are the slaves, the oppressed and the collaborators in this ‘Patriarchal Despotism.’

    In this arena, only the most violent and misandric of straight women appear to be heard by the ‘Man Hating’ Lesbian community. But even then, their sexual attraction to men still means that they are on the opposite side of the line.

    Is it possible that because she was secretly married to a man, Andrea Dworkin was lying when she claimed to be a Lesbian?

    Of course, mentioning this radical feminist brings me to the point of my comment.

    “Hisses. Women shouting at me: slut, bisexual, she ****s men. And before I had spoken, I had been trembling, more afraid to speak than I had ever been. And, in a room of 200 sister lesbians, as angry as I have ever been. “Are you a bisexual?” some woman screamed over the pandemonium, the hisses and shouts merging into a raging noise. “I’m a Jew,” I answered; then, a pause, “and a lesbian, and a woman.” … The event was a panel on “Lesbianism as a Personal Politic” that took place in New York City, Lesbian Pride Week 1977. A self-proclaimed lesbian separatist had spoken… articulated of late with increasing frequency in feminist circles: women and men are distinct species or races (the words are used interchangeably); men are biologically inferior to women; male violence is a biological inevitability; to eliminate it, one must eliminate the species/race itself (means stated on this particular evening: developing parthenogenesis as a viable reproductive reality); in eliminating the biologically inferior species/race Man, the new Ubermensch Womon (prophetically foreshadowed by the lesbian separatist * herself) will have the earthly dominion that is her true biological destiny. We are left to infer that the society of her creation will be good because she is good, biologically good. In the interim, incipient SuperWomon will not do anything to “encourage” women to “collaborate” with men… The audience applauded the passages on female superiority/male inferiority enthusiastically…
    In considering male intellectual and scientific argumentation in conjunction with male history, one is forced to conclude that men as a class are moral cretins.” (Andrea Dworkin)

    Regardless of whether we are simply ‘From Mars’ or a rival species to be annihilated, it is clear to me that some Lesbian women’s dislike, fear and/or hatred of men is the ‘Direct Cause’ of their prejudice towards Bi-sexual women. Because whilst straight woman can be shunned, ignored and pitied, Bi-sexuals are ‘Traitors’ and ‘Turncoats.’

    In my original comment, I put aside the fact that some Lesbians fear ‘Being Left For a Man.’ But since the possibility of break up is fundamental to EVERY relationship, it can only be the fear of being left for a ‘Man’ that causes so many Lesbians to reject Bi-sexuals out of hand. After all, losing a Bi-sexual woman to a man would mean losing to the ‘Rival’ or the ‘Enemy.’

    Rory’s irrelevant comment is just one example of how, regardless of their sexual preferences, some women cling to the illusion of a ‘Perfect, Nurturing and Caring Sisterhood,’ as opposed to the ‘Oppressive, Misogynistic and Competitive Tyranny of Men.’ However, this forum itself is ample proof of the fact that women can just as bigoted. And before anyone seeks to remind me of the vast majority of human history, I’d just like you to consider the following words.

    There is always a ‘Logical’ justification for bigotry, prejudice and hatred. Hundreds of Millions are persecuted every day, often for the most ‘Virtuous’ of causes.

    So perhaps when ALL women start treating men as individuals, good, bad or indifferent, no longer drawing a line in the sand and declaring us to be a ‘Separate Species,’ then I would not be at all surprised if Bi-sexual women were accepted by default.

  131. Donna says:

    James Ushcoft n’ Teresa TF, you are both so F’n rite!

    Like when Chris Rock talked ‘bout ‘Black ppl + N*****s;’ there are les wome, and there are ‘DYKES!’ N’ the dykes have got to go!

    Les women luv women…DYKES HATE MEN!

    If ya don’t wanna talk to a dyke, just ave a couple of male friends, cus men are like kryptonite to a dyke.

    “NO! GET THE FOUL PENIS AWAY FROM ME!”

    Me best friend Paul was also the best man at my wedding to Lisa. AND HE’S ALSO MY EX-HUSBAND!

    My ex-girlfriend Jodie was a ‘Gold Star’ whatever the F’ that actually means, and she left me cus I’m still friends wiv Paul.

    Bi women, I know what you’re goin’ through, cus I’m probably one myself! And you ‘DYKES’ are EVEN WORSE than the straites who hate us gays.

  132. Donna says:

    Before any one asks me, I am D.Y.L.E.X.I.C. And it has taken me one our to rite this. I S.H.O.U.L.D have waited for Paul or Lisa to help me, but I coud not wait.

    I no my last post was bad, but I W.R.O.T.E it fast, so do not call me stupid.

    My W.R.I.T.I.N.G reads normal to me. But nobody else can read it. When I try to write well, it is even worse. So just in case, I want to say it again.

    Les women luv women…Dykes Hate Men!

    I got more S.U.P.P.O.R.T from Paul than I ever did from sum O.F my gay ‘Sisters.’ They just keep wanting me to hate Paul.

  133. James Uscroft says:

    Dear Donna,

    I wish you and Lisa all the happiness in the world. And it’s wonderful that you didn’t hesitate to speak your mind for ANY reason.

    If my girlfriend ever meets and falls in love with woman who makes her feel happier than I can, then I only pray that I’ll be able to give her half as much platonic love and support as Paul has offered you.

    And finally though, don’t worry too much about your spelling etc. When other people read what you have to say, then I doubt that it will even be an issue.

  134. rory says:

    I’m so glad James is here to set us Lesbians straight. * heavy sarcasm*

    And that’s why I like women-only places, where I and other women can interact without constant assumptions of male privilege, that permeates our society.

    I have a wonderful loving father, great close male friends. And I love and support women. And our right to our own space and to define ourselves!

  135. Teresa TF says:

    Thank you Rory, we get the point!

    You hate men and a man must PROVE himself to you before you will give him the time of day.

    You won’t even acknowledge that I insulted you because I’m a woman.

    We get it… we get it…

    Can I just say that as a bi-sexual woman, I love men. I’m not afraid to come out and say it.

    Now Rory, please stop proving me right and shut the hell up.

    Teresa.

  136. James Uscroft says:

    I realise that there is nothing I can say in response to Rory’s latest comment. But in the end, I was just trying to answer the question of ‘Why Lesbians Hate Bi-sexuals’ as well as I possibly could, based upon my own very limited and subjective research.

    If anyone has a better answer to this question, then ‘PLEASE’ correct me asap. Because as well as fulfilling my all-consuming need to understand why any person ‘Chooses’ to hate another, I truly hoped that my comments would play some small part in actually solving the problem.

    I was doing my very best to answer the question, not just for the sake of my girlfriend, but for the millions of other Bi-sexual women across the world. Because as pretentious as it may sound, I only wanted to help.

    I realise of course that I’m part of the problem.

    Whenever I meet someone with different preferences etc, then it is my duty as a human being to respect and embrace those differences. Never to judge, never to say ‘No’ and never to insist, however unintentionally, that they should live there lives according to ‘My’ expectations. But what can I do when my girlfriend feels afraid to mix with, make friends with and have relationships with other women, simply because she’s afraid of mentioning me?

    Until now, I have tried to limit myself to an academic analysis of the question, looking at the big picture because I saw no point in ‘Getting Personal.’ Even my reference to Rory’s original comment merely cited it as the most recent example of a prejudice which I have come across many times before. After all, it is one of the key arguments in favour of ‘Same Sex’ education. But now however, with my girlfriend’s permission, I will try to put my own opinions in a personal context.

    I still remember the night when I helped my girlfriend to find the address of the local ‘GLBT’ support group.

    When the woman who ran the meeting answered the door, she invited me to come inside as well. But I declined immediately, knowing that my presence there would cause at least one of the other members to behave differently.

    To this day in fact, my girlfriend and I both find ourselves in something of a ‘Catch 22.’

    If she ever goes to a social event to meet other women without me, then she misses me and feels bad because she’s afraid to mention me. But if we go out together, then she is almost always dismissed as being ‘Taken, A Swinger, Pushed Into It, etc.’

    In fact, I’m incredibly sorry to say that my girlfriend has almost ‘Given Up’ on women entirely.

    She has only ever visited the ‘GLBT’ support group once, supposedly because it clashed with her Tae Kwon Do.

    Whilst at Tae Kwon Do however, she met another woman to whom she was extremely attracted. But although I made it clear that she could do what ever she wanted, even encouraging her to pursue a relationship with the women if she wished, in the end she did nothing, “Because either she’ll dump me because I love you, or I’ll end up having to choose between you.”

    Earlier this year in fact, I was with my girlfriend when another woman started ‘Hitting’ on her whilst the three of us were alone. And far from feeling possessive or jealous, I wanted to leave them both to it so that my girlfriend could feel free to choose what she desired for herself.

    Neither of us had given the woman any indication that we were a couple. And as the woman continued making her romantic overtures, we were both terrified of doing so. Because in the end, we feared that my very existence as her boyfriend would inevitably turn the woman off like a switch.

    ‘You’re ‘BI.’ You’re ‘Taken.’ You’re ‘Leading Me On’ and ‘Wasting My Time.’

    My girlfriend insists that even if I hadn’t been there, if she was single, or indeed, even if she were a ‘Lesbian,’ in the end, she simply didn’t find the woman attractive in any way, shape or form. But in spite of her assurances, I cannot help but feel that my very existence as her boyfriend limits her options.

    If I were a woman, would my girlfriend have been afraid to mention that she was in a relationship with me? The sad truth is that we will never know.

    To this day in fact, she insists that she doesn’t ‘Like’ socialising with women, that she is happy with me and so forth. But this breaks my heart, because no matter what I do, it means that she does indeed feel required to ‘Choose.’

    I have spent much of our relationship trying to find a place where she can express herself fully. Once again, I’m very sorry if this sounds pretentious, but her happiness means everything to me. Yet every group, every club and every social event that I suggest always presents her with this same Catch 22.

    There are many groups for committed couples who are simply ‘looking for fun,’ and there are countless women’s groups of all descriptions, stretching right across the sexual spectrum. But is there a ‘Polyamorous’ group for Bi-sexual women in long-term ‘Straight’ relationships? A place where the members are free to talk about and even introduce their boyfriends/husbands to the rest of the group if they choose, whilst at the same time, making friends and having relationships with the other members?

    Perhaps this is a silly question to ask on a ‘Lesbian’ website. But the vast number of posts from Bi-sexual women, as well as the handful from other straight men is proof that it is wonderfully non-exclusive. So if anyone else on this forum can suggest a group which my girlfriend might choose to join one day; a place where she, like Rory, can feel free to express herself openly, then I would be very grateful indeed.

    As a side note in fact, thinking specifically of Donna and the woman in the article who chose ‘Not to be named,’ is there also a group where women in Lesbian relationships can feel free to express their attraction towards, as well as their platonic, romantic and sexual relationships with men?

    I want my girlfriend, and indeed, every human being on the planet to feel free to define themselves and explore their own desires without fear of prejudice or being lumbered with meaningless ‘Labels.’

    If my first two posts set any kind of boundaries or were based upon ‘Male Privilege,’ then I sincerely apologise, and I will work to be much more accepting in the future. But although my first instinct was to leave this forum altogether, afraid that my mere presence here is doing more harm than good, I don’t think that I can help my girlfriend or other women by hiding for the rest of my life.

    As much as I long for my girlfriend to have her ‘Own’ life, her ‘Own’ relationships and her ‘Own’ desires, she keeps telling me that I am a vital part of her life; that she could never be happy without me, and that “It’s not my fault if other women can’t cope.”

    “I should be free to tell the women who I fancy that I love you without being treated like a traitor or a freak!”

    She wants to come ‘Out of the Closet.’ So whilst I applaud and throw my full support behind anything that allows people to be themselves, the article itself implies quite clearly that “(Place Group Here) ONLY Clubs!” do not do this.

    If you can only feel ‘Happy’ and ‘Free to Express Yourself’ by means of apartheid, then it is because you wish to isolate yourself from those things which you hate and fear. You simply want a place or a community etc where you can feel comfortable with your own prejudices, nothing more. A society based on exclusion, not mutual desires and interests.

    Of course, my girlfriend does not even want me to post this comment at all, because she thinks that it’s exactly what the people like Rory are hoping for. She insists that Rory and others like her will continue to mock and reject me, no matter what I have to say. And that when push comes to shove, “there is no point in anyone talking to her because she just won’t listen.”

    Incidentally in fact, this is the reason why I’m leaving my girlfriend’s name out of this discussion entirely, by her request; because she insists that there is almost no point in debating this issue at all. However, I always ask her to read through my posts to ensure that they are as fair and even-handed as any ‘Man’s’ opinion can be. And although I am a man, as I have already suggested, the question of “Why Lesbians Hate Bi-sexuals” can never be a ‘Female Only’ issue

    As a man who is in love with a Bi-sexual woman, I am a part of the ‘Problem,’ which means that I must also try to be a part of the ‘Solution.’

    Bi-sexuality is after all, a ‘Three Way’ issue. So at some point in the discussion, the men in question simply have to get involved. And the insecure Misogynists, Misandrists, Heterophobes, Biphobes, and Homophobes on both sides of the so-called ‘Gay/Straight Divide’ must simply choose to open their minds.

  137. Donna says:

    RORY, U R FULL OF ‘IT!’ U LAY INTO JAMES CUS HES A MAN, WHEN WOMAN HATE YOU TOO!

    I’M MARIED TO LISA SO I CAN CALL YOU A ‘DYKE’!

    WHERE WERE TESE MEN YOU LOVE WHEN U WER RANTING BOUT A FEM ONLY WORLD!

    THANX JAMES. HOPE UR HAPPY TO:)

    I’M NEVER COMING BACK NOW. I CANT BE B.O.T.H.E.R.E.D TO TIPE ‘U HATE MEN’ ANY MORE. JAMES + TF TEL U HOW IT IS!

  138. James Uscroft says:

    Thank you very much Donna. I understand what you mean. But I would just like to state for the record that I do not ‘Hate’ Rory. My comments are never aimed at any individual person, unless they are expressing gratitude, best wishes, etc, and that I do everything I can to ensure that I never knowingly ‘Hate’ anyone.

    Suffering from a condition that makes it very difficult for me to write by hand, (and as a result, viewing the computer keyboard as a Godsend,) I completely understand why, being dyslexic, you would choose to simplify your comments. But rather than expressing anger, blame, etc in my first two posts, I was only trying answer the question in the hopes of ‘Breaking Down the Barriers’ between Lesbians, Bi-sexual women and straight men. Of course, everyone interprets what they read according to his or own desires. If anyone has misconstrued my meaning, then I sincerely apologise. But once again, I just want to make it clear that in my opinion, Hatred, Prejudice, Discrimination, etc, no matter how well ‘Justified,’ are the only true enemies of ALL human kind.

  139. rory says:

    Your girlfriend is right, the vast majority of Lesbian women are monogomous, wishing to love and make love to one woman.
    Start your own forum; and find your threesome there because you surely won’t find what you want here.

    You merely reinforce greedy/slutty bi cliches and make it harder for the monogomous bi women.

  140. Teresa TF says:

    Rory, Have you read the damn article?

    Every word you type proves what a close-minded lesbian bigot you are, spouting the same rubbish about men and bisexuals that it was written to stop.

    You don’t know what being bisexual is and you don’t want to know. You want your closed and happy ‘Lez Only’ world where you interact with men YOU choose, WHEN you choose and then go on about what pigs the others are. You want the ‘Line’ that James talks about, so bi women must ‘pick a side.’

    By definition, to be bisexual in a monogamous relationship means that there is something missing in your life. We’re not sluts or promiscuous or any of that crap, we’re just attracted to women AND men.

    The fact that you started by ranting about men at University, then a straight man who made you question yourself, trotting out token men you like to prove your not a bigot ‘BUT,’ then ranting about the promiscous ‘Bi girlfriend…’ Are you trying to be a textbook example?

    You are the living definition of the DYKES (Donna’s word) that this article was written to expose. You hate men, you want to be seperate from men, so you hate and label all bisexuals as well.

    In the end, I agree with Donna and James’s girlfriend who doesn’t want to get involved. There’s no point talking to you anymore and there’s no point reading these comments.

    James just said what the article and other comments implied, what anyone with half a brain can see if they just read the same stuff.

    You are a venemous, man-hating ‘BITCH,’ so you hate bisexuals as well.

    THE END.

  141. James Uscroft says:

    Dear Teresa TF,

    You are absolutely right.

    I now agree with my girlfriend that this ‘Debate’ is a total waste of time, and that the reality is obvious to anyone who simply chooses to see it.

    As you’ve also suggested, I’m only drawing upon the literature which is freely available to all. And after what she has now both implied and stated about my girlfriend’s personal desires, I have no choice but to leave this forum before I ‘DO’ start hating Rory.

    The bigoted hypocrites like Rory and Asteroid can never be persuaded, convinced or reasoned with, by me or by anyone else. So as proud, Bi-sexual and Lesbian women, I think that it’s up to the people like you, my girlfriend, Donna and many others who’ve posted comments on this forum to simply defy them, no matter what they might say or believe.

    As a straight man, I realise that I can’t offer much in aid of this struggle. But I offer you the same support that I give to ANYONE who suffers ridicule and discrimination at the hands of ANY group.

    “SAY IT OUT LOUD, I’M ME & I’M PROUD!!!”

  142. James Uscroft says:

    Rory, Asteroid, ‘Out of the Closet’ and everyone who reads this article should watch this video on Youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wolhjT2jDr0&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

    The so-called ‘LGBT’ Rainbow is not just ‘Black & White!’

  143. Ali says:

    james why do u keep talking for your girl-friend? you think you know all about being a bi gal and you say some nice things but at the end of the day you are a GUY. just sayin.

  144. James Uscroft says:

    Dear Ali,

    I’m afraid that the only direct answer to your question, as pretentious as it may sound is simply ‘Because I Love Her.’ But although she has always insisted that this whole discussion is a waste of time, stating that “Nothing you or anyone else ever says will change Rory’s mind,” (individual example,) I would just like to reiterate that this hasn’t merely been a matter of me ‘Speaking up on my girlfriend’s behalf.’

    As a straight man however, I am also a little troubled by my own presence on this forum. Not only speaking as a representative of ‘All Heterosexual Men,’ but also attempting to identify and heal the rift between Bi-sexual and Lesbian women. So with regard to the underlying implication of your question, then I understand precisely what you mean.

    Every time that I post a comment on this website, I do everything I can to avoid the accusation that I AM just being an arrogant, self-righteous hypocrite. Indeed, this is one of the main reasons why I always ask my girlfriend to double-check everything that I’ve written, doing everything possible to ensure that my comments are as fair and as even-handed can be.

    I am fully aware of the fact that I am not, nor will I EVER understand what it means or how it feels to be a woman, Bi-sexual or otherwise. But as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, ‘I was only trying to help.’ Because even as a Heterosexual, white man, I am always deeply hurt by the knowledge that ANYONE is being persecuted, discriminated against or ridiculed for ‘Not Being Part of the Group.’

    I know full well of course that I am an ‘Outsider’ in this discussion. This is perhaps one of the reasons why I’ve done my best to be remain academic, simply interpreting the overall meaning of what many other people have written and only using individual quotes as examples.

    However, as the boyfriend of a Bi-sexual woman who is afraid of expressing her attraction to other women, feeling socially compelled to be ‘Monogamous’ and ‘Straight’ because of her relationship with me, I’ve also realised that I must attempt to be a ‘Part of the Solution.’

    I can no longer deny or hide my existence as her boyfriend in the hopes that she will be accepted by other women, anymore than a white man who is in love with Jamaican women should hide because she is facing discrimination from within the Afro-Caribbean community. Because in the end, if my answer to the question of “Why Do ‘SOME’ Lesbians Hate Bi-sexuals” is correct, then it is simply a matter of default.

    Believing that some lesbian women prejudge and label ‘ALL’ Bi-sexual women by extension, simply because they also prejudge and label ‘ALL’ Heterosexual men, I do not believe that it is selfish, hypocritical or arrogant of me to feel ‘Triply’ hurt by this discrimination. (Seeing the irrational hatred of the woman I love, realising that she is merely ‘Caught in the Crossfire’ and knowing that other women are suffering as well.) But understanding that I’m not in any position to comment on ‘Women’s Issues,’ please rest assured that barring any further direct questions or requests for clarification, this will probably be my final comment on the subject.

    I had already stated everything that I wished to say before reading your question. Indeed, I believe that I’d already answered it in the body of my previous posts, and the vast majority of other comments on this forum appear to be raising the same issues.

    I have clearly stated what I and some others believe to be the obvious answer to this question based simply upon what I have read, drawing conclusions and suggesting some possible ‘Solutions’ to the problem. So whilst I thank you for stating that I do have some nice things to say, please rest assured that barring any unforeseen circumstances, you will probably never hear from me again.

  145. Teresa TF says:

    Ali, Yes, James IS a man. He never said he was anything else. But from what you’re saying, it sounds like you’d agree with him IF HE WAS A WOMAN!

    Read his comments. He’s not saying anything that isn’t blindingly obvious to anyone. Read that “feminist” Bitch Dworkin’s quote and tell me that lesbians don’t hate bis because they hate men!

    If he was just ‘defending’ his girlfriend, why didn’t he lay into Rory?

    He’s a man. He never claimed to be anything else or to be speaking for bisexual women. He always said “from what I’ve read…from my limited research” and stuff like that. And in the end, I think he’s stopped because the truth just speaks for itself.

    Is it just that you don’t like a straight guy talking about women or ‘For’ women? Like he said, if biphobes hate his girlfriend because they hate him, he can’t just run away.

    “Just get rid of all the men we love and there’ll be no more biphobia!”

    Because then the greedy, insecure ‘Dykes’ can have us to themselves?

    No matter what though, I think he’s gone now. But even if you don’t like what HE was saying, just read article and the other comments to read the same thing over and over and over again!

    Lez: “We don’t like you because you like men!”

    Bi: “So? Stop judging us you lesbian bigots!”

    2+2=4, no matter what sex you are. And James is right when he says that it’s up to us to stop arguing and just be ourselves!

    I love women AND I love men. GET USED TO IT!

  146. polly styrene says:

    James, there is nothing stopping your girlfriend exploring her sexual desires with a WILLING partner. Some people are into polyamory, and don’t mind having multiple partners: she needs to seek out such people.

    BUT – lesbian (or bisexual) women are not some kind of resource, or public service your girlfriend is entitled to. If a particular woman does not want to sleep with your girlfriend that isn’t “biphobia”.

    If they refused to give her a job because she was bisexual, that would be biphobia, but sex is a personal relationship. If women who define themselves as lesbians don’t want to sleep with her she needs to accept their boundaries.

    If she wishes to maintain a relationship with you and also have a relationship with a woman it’s a bit pointless trying to do that with someone who only wants a monogamous relationship. They have rights too you know!

    Do you think the situation would be any different if she wanted a relationship with you and also with another man? No, of course not. If someone wants a polyamorous lifestyle they need to seek out like minded people. If you google ‘polyamory Uk’ You’ll find lots of links.

  147. James Uscroft says:

    Dear Polly,

    Once again, I understand precisely what you are saying. But at no point in any of my comments did I ever speak solely on my girlfriend’s behalf, ‘Insisting’ that Lesbian women should want to sleep with her etc.

    Everyone has a right to their own desires and preferences, but they do not have a right to dismiss, label, ridicule or discriminate against anyone for (not) being part of a group.

    Whilst one of my comments sought to put my opinions in a personal context, describing several of our experiences over the last 13 years of our relationship, the vast majority of what I have written is a deliberate, academic study of the reason why some Lesbians refuse to form relationships with ‘ANY’ Bi-sexual woman; even those who are single and more attracted to other women. And furthermore, why so many self-proclaimed ‘Lesbians’ are scared of admitting their sexual, emotional and romantic attractions to men.

    (The whole concept of the ‘Gold Star Lesbian’ being pure and untainted for example.)

    If you read the vast majority of the other comments on this forum, you will read a catalogue of Bi-phobia from some Lesbian women, however latent, describing Bi-sexuals as Tourists, Wannabes, Lesbians who are too scared to ‘Come Out of the Closet,’ ‘Contaminated by Cock,’ Promiscuous, ‘Natural Born Cheaters’ and on and on and on.

    When speaking specifically of my girlfriend, I was only questioning those people who insist that she has NO right to a Polyamorous relationship whatsoever. Those who say that as a Bi-sexual woman, she is by definition confused and emotionally disturbed, simply needing to ‘Pick a Team.’

    Like people of one ethnic group who not only refuse to consider interacting with another, but also condemn, denounce and shun any person who does so, the women who ‘Don’t want to have sex with Bi-sexuals’ are condemning other Lesbians, as well as the whole concept of Bi-sexuality as a whole.

    “Why are you going out with a confused, promiscuous ‘Straight Girl’ when she’ll just dump you for a man?”

    In our wider ‘Couple Oriented’ society of course, I was also questioning most people’s tendency to dismiss my girlfriend as a ‘Swinger’ etc, merely because she is attracted to a woman whilst engaged in a Heterosexual relationship.

    If they simply have no interest in any woman because she is in a relationship, gay, straight or otherwise, then that is their choice and they have every right to decline. But what about the woman who started ‘Hitting’ on my girlfriend in a nightclub, then threw a drink in her face and called her a ‘F***ing Tourist’ the moment she even mentioned that she was Bi-sexual? Not in a relationship, let alone with a man, but Bi-sexual!

    After being deeply upset by the implications your comment, my girlfriend has only just mentioned this experience to me this evening. So at last, I finally understand why she’s too afraid to go to nightclubs anymore. And I also have a slightly deeper understanding of why she has virtually ‘Given Up on Women.’

    Judging by the short space of time between your two most recent comments, (on separate forums,) I wonder if you’ve actually had the opportunity to digest and fully consider all of these points.

    In short, I deeply apologise if any of my previous comments were unclear. I would be happy to clarify any further points of confusion between us. But if you haven’t already done so, I hope that you will take the time to consider the wider issues before posting another comment on this subject.

  148. Teresa TF says:

    Polystyrene or whatever the heck your name is, READ THE SODDING ARTICLE! And James, stop apologising. YOUR NOT THE PROBLEM!

    How DARE you suggest that James’s girlfriend, and by extention, ALL bisexual women are just spitting our dummies, claiming ‘biphobia’ everytime that a lesbian doesn’t want to sleep with us!

    After all, we’re just promiscuous sluts who want to shag anything in trousers or a skirt, so we get really upset when monogamous people turn us down!

    Have you ever gone to a lesbian nightclub and been treated like a leper, seeing other women sneer as they look down at your skirt because you’ve been ‘contaminated’ and listening to non-stop ‘Jokes’ about being bisexual?

    “I’ll have a gin and tonic please.”

    “What, can’t you make up your mind?”

    HA HA HA BLOODY HA!

    Have you ever been in a relationship with a jealous, insecure, possessive lesbian BITCH who won’t stop grilling you about who you’re thinking about when your in bed? And when you finally leave her because you can’t take it anymore, she says that your just ‘running back to men?’

    BTW Out of the Closet, did that so called straight girl run back to men because you just wouldn’t shut up about if she fancied them?

    Not biphobic ’til you fell for a bi girl…that’s a laugh.

    Back to Poly though, have you ever spent the night with a woman, french kissed her and then seen her run through to brush her teeth because you mentioned that her tongue tasted much nicer than your last boyfriend’s cock?

    (The next day she also went to the doctor because she was scared that I’d given her something!!!!)

    Have you ever been ‘SUPPORTED’ by lesbian women you don’t know from eve, encouraging you to stop ‘Living a Lie’ and admit that your a lesbian as well?

    “Are you afraid that you’re boyfriend is going to get violent if you admit you’re gay?”

    NO, I’m gonna get violent if you don’t stop treating me like a victim and passing judgement on a man you’ve never met!!

    Have you ever been asked if you’ve ‘given up being bi now’ because your going out with a man? Or if your lesbian now because you’re with a woman?

    These are just some examples of what bisexuals go through EVERY DAY!

    Do you think if people weren’t judging us and making fun of us every single step of the way that we’d be on here ranting about it? Do you think we’d have the highest rate of suicide? Do you think we’d feel forced to pretend that we’re either gay or straight?

    NO! We’d be living our lives and expressing ourselves! How DARE you suggest that simply searching for a polyamarous group wiLL fix the problem!

    By pretending that the problem doesn’t exist, you are WORSE that the bigots (gay and straight) who are trying to justify their biphobia.

    If you don’t want to have sex with A person, fine, but stop judging and labelling us you small-minded, petty little ‘I’m not biphobic…BUT!”

  149. Teresa TF says:

    Now that I’ve reminded myself of my HIDEOUS experience in lesbian nightclubs, here’s a few more of the JOKES that a gang of three or four lesbians would tell as they followed me around, laughing histerically and making sure that I could hear them.

    (Not the same lesbians mind you, different women in different clubs until I just stopped going altogether.)

    Why did the bi girl stand outside the public toilets till she wet herself?

    Because she couldn’t decide if she wanted to use the Gents or the Ladies.

    What does the vicar say when a bi girl gets married?

    You may now kiss the bridesmaids.

    Why do bi brides never go on honeymoon?

    Because the the honeymoon suite doesn’t have a triple bed.

    A bi fills out a form that asks male or female? She writes ‘Both Please!’

    What does a bi girl call a heamaphrodite? Darling!

    What does a bi girl call her lesbian girlfriend? “John, John, oh yes John, F*** me hard!”

    Did you here about the bi girl who was let off for killing her lesbian girlfriend? Which ever prison they sent her to, it’d be a reward!

    What do you when you smell a man’s aftershave on your bi girlfriend? Check her p****y for spunk.

    What do you call your bi girlfriend’s platonic male friend? The baby’s father!

    Why can a bi girl never pass her driving test? She just can’t cope with one way streets.

    (Or she can’t tell the difference between red and green, not particularly funny either way.)

    What does a bi girl say to her rapist? “Can you bring your wife next time?”

    (This was usually the point at which my knuckles started turning white.)

    What does a bi girl call a gay man? A challenge.

    What does a bi girl call a committed, loving relationship?
    A lie.

    Three bi girls meet a straight married couple. One F***s and man, one F***s his wife and the other F***s them all.

    What do three bi girls call a lesbian couple? Two-thirds a party.

    There are hundreds more, but you get the idea.

    I was laughing so hard that the tears were streaming down my cheeks. It might have looked like I was crying, but the gang of lesbians knew that I was loving every minute of it and they just kept hurling these jokes at me as I ran outside to find a taxi!

    Of course, it was ENTIRELY my own fault for stalking these pure, unadulterated lesbian women in their perfect and monogamous relationships. It’s not as if I ever saw two lesbians cheating on their girlfriends together in the club toilets or anything.

    NO SUCH THING AS BIPHOBIA?

    FEMININE SOLIDARITY MY ARSE!

  150. rory says:

    what you need is a support group and therapy. Calling us names here is not going to help your cause.

    If you truly want to do something productive, start a support group and host a wepage and forum for non-swinging polyamorous bi’s, where you can discuss your problems and vent in a supportive atmosphere.

  151. Teresa TF says:

    Why should I run away and hide in my own little corner? YOU just want to get rid of us!

    Why should I stop calling you venemous DYKES when you won’t stop calling us Straight, Tourists, Wannabes, Weekend Lesbians, Trendies and SLUTS!?

    How about you BITCHES all stop hating us for liking men?

    PROBLEM SOLVED!

    Or better yet, STOP HATING MEN AND THE PROBLEM SOLVES ITSELF!

    Now YOU run off to your safe and supportive little ‘Lez Only’ world where all men are bastards and no woman ever critisises you! I’LL BE OUT HERE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD!!!

  152. polly styrene says:

    “”How DARE you suggest that James’s girlfriend, and by extention, ALL bisexual women are just spitting our dummies, claiming ‘biphobia’ everytime that a lesbian doesn’t want to sleep with us”"

    I didn’t suggest that, I was responding to what James wrote. And why should James’ girlfriend be representative of all bisexual women?

    I know plenty of bisexual women who are monogamous. I know plenty of lesbians who have relationships with bisexual women. None of them behave in the way you describe. However if James’s girlfriend, as he suggests wants to have a relationship with a woman whilst also maintaining her relationship with him, she obviously needs to find women who don’t want monogamous relationships.

    I think the point you’re missing Teresa is that everyone has the right to sexual autonomy, and it’s our responsibility to ensure that we get to know people before we get into relationships of any kind, so we don’t go into them with differing expectations.

    I have NEVER known anyone behave the way you describe in a lesbian club, and quite frankly I’ve never met any lesbians who talk that way about bisexual women. Thinking of my closest lesbian friends (who have never had relationships with men) several have been in long term relationships with bisexual women.

    However in clubs and bars, I have experienced what I can only describe as predatory heterosexual couples, who seem to think that lesbians are there because they’re just dying to go home and have a swinging threesome with them.

    So maybe you and James can understand a bit more why lesbians feel the way they do. Generally speaking lesbians (the ones I know anyway) aren’t pretending not to be attracted to men, they aren’t. Just aren’t. So it’s fairly irritating to be in a lesbian bar and be hit on by swingers who’ve watched too much bad porn.

    Which brings me on to my final point. Nightclubs aren’t a great place to meet partners! When I’m in a club, I’m inevitably out for a drink/dance/laugh with my mates, not to “hit on” anyone. If you’re part of a minority in the outside world, it’s nice to be in a place where you’re in the majority. Where you aren’t having homophobic remarks made by tanked up straight blokes. Think about it.

    And that’s another reason why a lot of us aren’t keen on straight couples invading the very few lesbian spaces there are.

  153. Nicky says:

    Polly, I get what your saying, but I also get what TF is saying as well. I’ve only met a couple of lesbians who behaved like Teresa described but they really really hurt me. I was scared to say I was bi for years afterwards. You’ve never met anyone who hates bisexuals…lucky you. But please, please please try to see things from other peoples point of view. And please, not more Motherly Advice. It’s really patronising. It really gets TF angry. It sounds like it really hurt James girlfriend as well and I know how they feel. I know you’re only trying to help. but we don’t want any help…we want acceptance! Do you have any idea how difficult it is for an openly bi-sexual woman to find a manogamous partner who accepts her completely? who isn’t constantly pressuring her to ‘pick a side?’ Let alone one who encourages her to be poly without just wanting to watch or any of that bad porn crap? James sounds too be true :)
    You’ve met predatory hetrosexual couples and you seem to judge james by the same stripe. I haven’t and maybe he just cares. We all have different experiences. You think what you think. I think what I think and biphobic lesbians who treat us like scum think what they think as well. Were all different, so lets all please just live and let live.

  154. polly styrene says:

    Also James:

    “”And furthermore, why so many self-proclaimed ‘Lesbians’ are scared of admitting their sexual, emotional and romantic attractions to men.”"

    is just disrespectful. If you don’t respect Lesbians right to self definition, why do you expect them to respect anyone else’s right to self definition? Please bear in mind that I, and all out lesbians, (if Teresa wants some more horror stories) live our lives with straight men telling me that we really fancy men, we’re just too stupid to realise it.

    Indeed I remember on one occasion really a man shouting “You’re a lesbian, you’re confused, you want cock” repeatedly at me on public transport.

    Nice eh? And you wonder why I want to avoid men?

  155. electrotorture says:

    Hey Polly, do you think, as a gay man, I don’t get similar treatment some straight women? Curiously though, what with my best friend being female, I have the sense to understand they’re just idiots and not slander your entire sex.

    Besides, I doubt you’ve got time for this debate, I’m sure you need to spend your time consulting your blogging community about how best to defecate over transpeople, no?

  156. James Uscroft says:

    Dear Polly,

    First of all, I have never considered the possibility that you would ever “avoid men,” simply because I have never seen anything to suggest that you choose to do so until now. But in any case however, I’m afraid that you appear to be twisting my words, deliberately quoting one of my statements out of context in order to provoke a confrontation.

    I have asked my girlfriend to read your post to ensure that I’m not judging you out of hand, but I’m sorry to say that she agrees.

    As a matter of fact, and this is a direct quote:

    “Ah, the man-hating, Bi-phobic bigot shows her true colours at last. After what she implied about us and that rubbish about she spouted about ‘Predatory Heterosexual Couples,’ I never doubted it for a second. No one could possibly have been that Bi-ignorant and patronising unless they were trying to be. But don’t worry darling, you didn’t say anything to provoke her. The petty Bitch just lost her argument with TF, so now she’s picking a fight with you instead; twisting your words and banging on about something that she never even mentioned before.”

    In the sentence which you quote, I was referring specifically to the article above. The Lesbian woman who chose not to be named stating that she was afraid of expressing her attraction towards men, and the research which showed that a certain percentage of Lesbian women admit feeling Heterosexual attractions to varying degrees at certain points in their lives.

    The article itself clearly demonstrates that just as you suggest, in some cases sexuality is largely a matter of definition. However, the whole thread of my academic analysis was not questioning these definitions, but questioning the basis upon which they are built.

    I’m afraid that I can’t go any further on this point without revisiting my previous comments in their entirety. But in short, no definition or self-definition based upon exclusion and discrimination is ever acceptable.

    For example, your apparent assumption that the verbally abusive, Homophobic man who harassed you on public transport was somehow representative of all Heterosexual men. And as a result, your statement that you prefer the company of women.

    If I am nearby when any person is behaving so horrendously for any reason, I will immediately intervene to try and stop it; making it clear that their behaviour is unacceptable to me and to the vast majority of decent society. However I do my very best never to prejudge any person based solely upon a particular characteristic.

    For example, I was also travelling on a bus when a group of female students from the local Beauty Therapy College started laughing and making jokes about one of their classmates for being a ‘DYKE.’

    Did the woman in question have any sexual preference towards the same sex? I’ve never met her, so I honestly don’t know. But considering the fact that they were bragging about their attempts to make her quit the course for that very reason, refusing to work with her etc, the reality was that the group had defined the young woman by exclusion, and this was unacceptable to me.

    How many of the women who were bullying this student were Bi-curious, Bi-sexual or ‘Closet Lesbians’ and only projecting their own insecurities? In the end, it made no difference whatsoever. And as I walked past them to disembark the bus, I stated quite clearly that their ‘Jokes’ were not in the least bit funny, and that only a twisted person takes pleasure from another person’s pain. (Unless of course it is a part of fully consenting BDSM role-play.)

    They were too shocked to speak for a moment. But as I reached the doors of the bus, one of them began shouting “You —- Dyke Lover! Are You —- Gay or Something?”

    You state that you prefer the company of women, but my experience has been that women are often just as bigoted, if not more bigoted than men. But returning to the actual meaning of the sentence which you quoted, it is not a question of how people choose to define themselves, but how they often feel compelled to define themselves in relation to a group.

    The article itself shows that many women who might otherwise define themselves as Bi-sexual may feel compelled by group pressure to define themselves as Lesbians, just as many Bi-sexual women in our society feel compelled to define themselves as straight.

    Whilst you appear to claim that you have only suffered Homophobia at the hands of straight men, and that as a result, you view separating yourself from Heterosexual male society to be a clear-cut solution, I know for a fact that many Lesbian women have suffered discrimination and abuse at the hands of Heterosexual women. Just as I now know for a fact that Bi-sexual women have suffered discrimination and abuse at the hands of Lesbian women in turn.

    Indeed, the same holds true for all genders and Transgenders across the sexual spectrum.

    I’m afraid that I do not understand what you mean by ‘Horror Stories’ in this context. But whilst you claim to speak for all ‘Out’ Lesbian women, I have never known any man harass an ‘Out’ Lesbian in the manner that you describe. And just as you say that you have never known any Lesbian women to harass a Bi-sexual woman, whilst at the same time, making sweeping and patronising assumptions about my relationship with my girlfriend, I am confident that some ‘Out’ Lesbians will be unable to identify with your experiences.

    Even if this is not the case however, what possible reason could you have for describing these experiences when you have never mentioned or even indicated them before? How does your unique experience as a Lesbian woman bare upon the experiences of my girlfriend and other Bi-sexual women, unless of course you are stating by implication that my answer to the original question is true?

    In any event, I’m sorry to say that it simply does not matter. My girlfriend is becoming increasingly frustrated with the time and energy that I am devoting to what is effectively a dead discussion.

    As I and other people on this forum have stated several times, the reality is obvious to anyone who simply chooses to see it. Bi-phobia exists, and unfortunately it appears that you yourself are yet another example of a Misandric and Bi-phobic Lesbian.

    If you as an individual have any problem with me or with anything that I have written, then so be it.

    This will be my final comment on this subject, regardless of how many questions or accusations are posed. Because as well as unsettling at least one person named Ali, my presence on this forum has become a Sisyphusian Labour, always making, repeating and defending the same points over and over again, attempting to put across my point of view to people who have no interest in opening their minds.

    Many people who read my posts in their entirety will no doubt draw the same conclusions and make the same accusations that you have made. But in the end, the fact that it is affecting my relationship with my girlfriend means that I can no longer allow this to be my problem.

    A deaf person will never hear a word you say, no matter how loud you shout. And as more and more people continue to comment on this subject, I have no doubt that the same issues, justifications, experiences and arguments will be raised over and over again.

    Some Lesbian women appear to define themselves by their dislike, mistrust, suspicion and fear of ‘Men,’ separating themselves from their company wherever possible. And so because Bi-sexual women cannot be defined by this line between ‘Male and Female,’ between ‘Heterosexual & Homosexual,’ all the evidence suggests that they appear to suffer abuse, ostracism, discrimination and attempts at forced categorisation from ALL quarters for their refusal to simply ‘Pick a Side.’

  157. polly styrene says:

    Well I’m not using language like your girlfriend is James. Perhaps that lies at the root of her problems?

    And as I have reiterated many times, this is a matter of people respecting each other’s boundaries. If women want to live a separatist lifestyle that is THEIR PREROGATIVE. Nobody else’s business.

    Your girlfriend expects to be accepted as she is, but hypocritically uses abusive language towards women who are not the same as her. And the predatory heterosexual couples? They’re a fact. I’ve seen them with my own eyes, and I fancy I’ve been in more lesbian clubs than your girlfriend.

  158. rory says:

    well said, Polly. There is simply no reason to use abusive language.

    I know a lesbian group with a bi, poly member. She is utterly open about her choices and she is very likable and popular and invited everywhere by lesbian women.

    Respect, openess, honesty are treated in kind.

  159. polly styrene says:

    Well I’m very sceptical about the whole thing Rory, let’s leave it at that.

  160. Jasmin says:

    *Nightclubs aren’t a great place to meet partners!*
    That’s a bit off-topic now, but where else if I may ask? I haven’t been to a lesbian nightclub yet, but given the fact in my area (small city in Austria) there aren’t any other opportunities to meet women I don’t know where else I could meet them.

  161. Teresa TF says:

    I couldn’t figure out what the Hell Poly was talking about…so thanks for clearing it up.

    As a straight man, James HAS to be accusing all lesbians of really being straight etc.

    All of that crap about his girlfriend is because she’s in love with a straight man.

    Ie, we hate men, anything a man says is homophobic and so all bi woman are victims, traitors and sluts.

    Amazing how some people read whatever they want to read and believe whatever they want.

    I’ve never heard a straight man say a lesbian is straight either, but PLENTY of Lez women have insisted that I’m gay!!!

  162. rory says:

    Poly; i agree with you. I’m not going to engage with them.

    Jasmin,
    try Curve Personals, they’re a Lesbian magazine with an Int’l following and I find the women there very nice and real

  163. Jasmin says:

    Thanks for the tip!

    Whew, I knew there was quite some buzz going on within the community, but I didn’t expect there to be so many hard feelings. I’ll think twice before I tell anyone I’m bi (and I feel compelled to mention I’m monogamous and completely faithful to any partner).

    Imo love is love – it’s the most precious thing of all. Nobody should be hated, ridiculed or shunned because of who they love. If we treat each other like that we’re no better than the homo- and biphobic straight people hating us. It doesn’t matter whether one is bi/les/gay/straight or whatever, after all we’re all just humans and each and everyone of us has to deal with their own load of emotions.

    If finding happiness in life (which is hard enough anyway!) means you have to defy the sanctioned paths of society, like in James’ and his girlfriend’s case (and in the case of all of us), I think you should do it. And frankly I don’t see any problem, if James and his girlfriend want that kind of ‘enhanced’ relationship as long as they’re being honest to potential partners right from the beginning (which should be an absolute requirement!).

    “To fear love is to fear life, and those who fear life are already three parts dead.” – Bertrand Russell

    “Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom, in the pursuit of truth as in the endeavour after a worthy manner of life.” – Bertrand Russell

  164. polly styrene says:

    Well lots of folks try the internet these days Jasmin, there are loads of dedicated lesbian dating sites, but as all the best agony aunts say, try activities where you can meet people you’ve got something in common with, walking groups, choirs, reading groups, theatre groups, there are usually lesbian/gay variations of these and many more around most places….

  165. Teresa TF says:

    Here’s another video to watch:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPzk165TH1w

    And ‘BI’ the way, who else thinks that Rory and Polystyrene would make a wonderful couple? ;)

    After all, they’re both venemous man-hating, hetrophobic, biphobic lesbians who want to split themselves off from the rest of the world, creating a (fictional) pure, supportive and monogamous ‘Lez Only’ society.

    “Yes yes, you bisexuals and men can do whatever you want as long as you do it way over there. No, further away so that we don’t have to think about you.”

    “Don’t come into OUR clubs, don’t try to form relationships with us, don’t even try to talk to us. Just F*** off and keep your filthy desires to yourself.”

    Tell me, isn’t that what homophobes do to lesbians and gays? So I’m really happy that whether they’re gay, straight or whatever, many people have no trouble with bisexuals.

    There’s nothing worse than seeing bigotry and oppression turn the ‘Victim’ into an oppressive bigot as well.

  166. rory says:

    Poly, you are absolutely right, doing things is so much better
    Jasmin you can start your own local group; play frisbee or soccer , a book group, meeting at a coffeehouse or for dinner and chat once a week. We do that where I live and it’s very nice

  167. Jasmin says:

    Oh dear! I never understood racists, religious extremists, xenophobes, homophobes and biphobes on both “sides” and anyone similar …. and I still don’t. And I don’t think I ever will. I think all those -phobes and -ists are just being highly irrational. Because there’s no justification for any of them.

    polly, rory – on paper that’s a good idea, I don’t think it’s possible here though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferlach
    And I don’t even live there, but in a tiny village 13km away. I am always trying to get involved in activities whenever I get the chance. It’s tough though – because of my young age (18 and without a car) and the next “bigger” city (Klagenfurt) does have two mixed queer bars, but frankly I don’t have the guts to go there yet. I’m unfortunately not that much a bar person – and a bit shy. I wonder how to get the guts to go there?

  168. Lenny says:

    So since this thread is still majorly dwelling upon the “She left me for a man!” issue, I thought I’d provide some insight that I haven’t seen brought up yet.

    It surprises me that when lesbians are angry about their bisexual ex-girlfriends dating men NO ONE seems to take these other variables into account:

    1. Is nobody aware that men are just easier to find than we are? If 10% of the population is composed of gays/lesbians that means straight men outnumber us at a ratio of about 9:1. That’s just the truth and I don’t have an issue with it. We as lesbians without either denying our nature or engaging in a futile pursuit of straight women have no choice but to fish from this tiny pool plus whatever percentage bi women add. Some bisexual women want to wait around and/or search for another woman. Some don’t. Neither one is better or worse for doing so and I find it very narrow minded to chalk this up to an issue of relative virtue.

    2. The societal pressure placed upon bisexual women is REAL. As lesbians, if we want to be true to ourselves we have no choice but to resist conforming to heteronormative society because we are only capable of being content with romantic relationships with women. So to suggest that bisexual women are weak-willed for caving under societal pressure completely ignores how EASY it is for us not to. While in doing so bi women may indeed be acting on their sincere desire and not pressure, we as lesbians *cannot* sincerely be a part of a heterosexual relationship. That possibility is there for bi women and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself.

    In fact through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, bi women would understandably seek a man simply because:

    Committing to a woman means never getting married.

    Unless you live in one of the minority of locations which allow gays the right to marry (I do), this is the reality that bi women face. In many cases this can make it difficult or impossible to start a family which is something I’m sure many of us would like to do as well. However, a heterosexual marriage is not an option for us outside of a grand cover-up. This isn’t an advantage bisexual women *choose* to have and it would be unfair to demand that they curtail their nature for our purposes. This isn’t to say that bi women are useless in the pursuit of marriage equality. I know many bi women (including the first woman to be married to a woman in my home state) who are active in the pursuit of marriage equality so that committing to women no longer poses these challenges.

    If society weren’t so hostile, bi women would have no reason to run to men for security.

  169. polly styrene says:

    Jasmin, there surely must be some queer women where you live though – try the internet to make contact with a few people as friends, then you can get out on the social scene and meet more people. It wouldn’t be so intimidating to go to a bar if you weren’t alone.

  170. rory says:

    Jasmin; I’d make up a flyer for a meeting at a nice local coffeehouse, post it at the gay Bar but in the daytime “Lesbian social/reading/movie/ cycling group’ & also any local universities, women’s groups, libraries, health food shops.
    As Polly says there are queer women about, they just need a reason to come out. It takes a bit of effort but you will be glad.

  171. Karma. says:

    I am proud to say I am a GOLD STAR LESBIAN, and I truly believe bisexuals are confused.Its like saying I want to go and I want to stay. I want to talk and I want to be quiet. I’m happy and I’m sad. Confusing isn’t it? and if there so “secure” in their sexuality Why to justify your actions to two communities that don’t get you in the first place.Their should be the Gay, Straight and bisexual community.Im not agreeing with the bisexuals cant be faithful because thats untrue, but they have the CHOICE to go back another sex. They don’t understand a REAL lesbian and Gay man’s day to day struggle, because all they have to do is go back to the heterosexual world.Something we can never do.

    And for these women “claiming” their lesbian but date men…YYYOOOUUUURRR BBBBIII… stop trying to fit into a group of people because of the trend and/or it looks and sound good,It makes women like me have to women 10 times harder because men think they can convert us.

    I said my peace
    -Karma J.

  172. Helen says:

    “I said my peace
    -Karma J.”

    You said your piece actually.

    I am a woman who, after spending most of my twenties with male partners has now found the love of her life with a woman. What does that make me? I identify as lesbian but according to Karma, apparently I don’t understand the REAL struggle of being a lesbian and she would label me bi-sexual. You are promoting bi-phobia Karma- shame on you, you should know better.

  173. K says:

    “I am proud to say I am a GOLD STAR LESBIAN,”

    Good for you! Everyone should take pride in who they are, and everyone should be respected.

    “and I truly believe bisexuals are confused.Its like saying I want to go and I want to stay. I want to talk and I want to be quiet. I’m happy and I’m sad. Confusing isn’t it?”

    1. The ability to experience a variety of sometimes conflicting emotions simultaneously is a sign of psychological maturity.

    2. You are demonstrating your confusion over bisexuality very well. You’re not demonstrating that bi people are themselves confused.

    3. I am female and academically bright. Imagine being told that I must choose one of these inherent traits in order to make other people comfortable with my identity. I could be a woman, or I could be intelligent. It would be illogical, unfair, and the point would not be to make me clear about my identity, but to prevent other people from having to deal with the idea that women are as clever as men without being men. Not cool. Apply to any other set of inherent traits and see how it works: You can be tall or black, but if you choose your tallness, you must be white. You can be a gifted athlete or you can be grey eyed, but if you choose your grey eyes, you must be a klutz. See how that works?

    4. If you’re claiming that bisexuality is not a valid orientation or identity, you’ve undermined one of your points below (I’ll note which one).

    “and if there so “secure” in their sexuality Why to justify your actions to two communities that don’t get you in the first place.”

    I’m assuming that English is your second language, and that it is not always easy for you to articulate your ideas in English. On the assumption that you’re asking why bi people take the time to explain their existence to gay and straight people who don’t understand them, I’d ask you to consider why gay men and lesbians make the effort to explain their existence to straight people who don’t understand them. You might consider why women take the time to explain why we are deserving of equal opportunities to men, why black people living in predominantly white cultures seek to educate white people about their histories and cultures, or why people with disabilities take the time to engage with people who don’t. In all cases, it is because engaging with people outside our own groups is the way to further equality, gain mutual understanding and respect, and create a fairer, safer, and healthier society.

    “Their should be the Gay, Straight and bisexual community.”

    Could you please explain this? I’m really not sure why you think this is so. My own belief is that mutual support across a range of minority groups not only makes us better people, but brings with it greater odds of success.

    “Im not agreeing with the bisexuals cant be faithful because thats untrue, but they have the CHOICE to go back another sex. They don’t understand a REAL lesbian and Gay man’s day to day struggle, because all they have to do is go back to the heterosexual world.Something we can never do.”

    This seems to me a fundamental misunderstanding of bisexuality.

    If you believe that bi people are half straight and half gay, you might believe that they can simply shut down the gay half, and you might further conclude that this would mean they can be entirely happy pretending to be straight.

    When examined, however, it’s clear that this is very faulty logic indeed.

    Bi people are not half gay and half straight, but 100% queer. Our queerness is not neatly sectioned off into parts which are quickly and easily turned off and on again any more than any other fundamental part of who they are.

    A person who is not straight is not straight all the way through, and they cannot force themselves to be straight. They can repress their queerness at a terrible price. Shutting down a fundamental part of the psyche is incredibly stressful and harmful. It gives rise to a host of emotional problems. This applies to bi people as well as to gay men and lesbians – after all, it’s not only bi people who can CHOOSE a heteronormative lifestyle, to pass as straight while cramming down their authentic selves and living in constant fear of outing themselves.

    Living a lie is bloody miserable no matter who you are.

    You are correct that bi people’s issues are not always the same as gay men or lesbians’ issues. They are, however, just as real, just as valid, and overlap in significant ways. Understanding each other allows us to come to a more intelligent, nuanced, and ultimately practical and healthy understanding of the range of human sexualities.

    “And for these women “claiming” their lesbian but date men…YYYOOOUUUURRR BBBBIII… ”

    This is the point undermined by your assertion that bi people are merely confused.

    “stop trying to fit into a group of people because of the trend and/or it looks and sound good,It makes women like me have to women 10 times harder because men think they can convert us.”

    It is perfectly correct that no-one should try to force themselves into an identity that doesn’t fit them just to please others.

    If your point, though, is that queer women of any flavour should not date men because it confuses men, perhaps the real issue is the lack of education around queer sexualities in the mainstream. Any straight man who thinks he can “convert” a queer woman is profoundly mistaken. I know many straight men who perfectly understand that:

    a) They cannot make a queer woman straight
    b) That there are bi women and lesbians, and that they are not the same in terms of attraction to men
    c) That female sexuality does not exist purely for their convenience

    These men respect women, regardless of their orientation, understand that no means no, get along well with people of a range of orientations, sexes, genders, and gender identities, and have healthy boundaries. This is because they have taken the time to engage with people unlike themselves in order to better understand them, and because those people took the time to educate them. See my previous point about how engaging with and educating/listening to people unlike ourselves leads to greater happiness all round.

    In other words, the problem is not queer women dating men, but that the misogyny of our culture needs to be challenged with greater frequency and efficacy, thereby increasing equality, fairness, and happiness for everyone (including straight men).

    Did that help?

  174. Karma. says:

    to the two women that commented on my point of view. Regardless of how you two feel I still have the same views after reading your long winded speeches… both of you need to learn my opinion is just that MY OPINION and why feel the need to be so defensive… does my state stir up some unwanted emotions…lol..i think so…I AM A WOMAN THAT EXTREMELY DISLIKES BISEXUALS..like i stated before…you have a choice…I cannot choose to be with a man because I dont have that sexual desire..and the fact of the matter is at the end of the day…YOU DO!!.. even if you are in a committed relationship with a women you still have the choice to be with a man…

    and you k.. how dare you compare sexuality to the black community…

    YOU CANNOT STAY AND GO!!
    YOU CANNOT TALK AND BE QUIET!!

    @ k

    You cannot compare traits that you can have both of to two things you cannot do both of…K… you dont sound to intelligent to me…

    and Helen
    I used the correct terminology…
    peace as in the absence of mental stress or anxiety..i got what I need to say off of my chest..

    and after AGAIN answering the questions “why do lesbians hate bisexuals”

    Because their( and yes I a generalizing)confused human beings with a luxury of choosing ANY sex, that STRIAGHT, GAY AND LESBIAN woman and men do not have..

  175. K says:

    Karma -

    Because we can’t see each other or hear each other’s voices on forums like this, it can be really to get a false impression of intentions. Though I can’t speak for Helen, I can say that there was no anger or distress whatsoever on my part, so be assured that defensiveness was not an issue :)

    I won’t make a proper response to the questions and points you raised right now, as I’m unwell. If you’d be interested in genuine discussion, I’d be glad to do so later in the week. I hope we’d both continue to be courteous and cordial.

  176. Karma. says:

    If this is a matter you would like to continually discuss, absolutely.

  177. Becky says:

    I find it strange that anyone would refer to love as a choice.

    I’m not bisexual but my girlfriend of 7 years is. Did she consciously choose to fall in love with me? Of course she didn’t and neither did I, it just happened. Equally if she fell in love with a man instead it wouldn’t be a choice – it would be who she loved.

    The whole ‘its a choice’ thing has been thrown around by homophobic straight people at LGBT people for years. It makes no sense to me that lesbians would use they same false argument against bisexuals.

    Like K there is no anger in my post, just confusion…. :)

  178. Charlotte says:

    From a lesbian point of view i personally have nothing against bisexual people and i hate it when people say that they’re just being greedy. You can’t decide who you fall in love with and lesbians should know better than to discriminate against anyone just because of their sexuality.
    The only thing that annoys me is that these days some people think it’s ‘cool’ to be gay so they tell people that they’re bisexual when in fact by this they mean they’d kiss their best mate in a club to get a man’s attention and that’s the extent of their bisexuality. This really gets to me because i feel that it’s mocking lesbians and bisexuals and increases the view that lesbians are just here to turn men on. I mean how many times has a lesbian or bisexual woman been out with their girlfriend and ignorant men shout for you to kiss in front of them like it’s their right to witness this kind of intimacy just because it turns them on. The straight women that use the bisexual label so loosely are causing problems for true bisexual and lesbian women.
    Therefore no i do not have a problem with bisexual people at all, just women who identify as bisexual when in fact they are not and they know they’re not.

  179. Charlotte says:

    By the way when i talk about men viewing lesbians purely as a source to pleasure their own sexual minds i am not applying that to all men because i know alot of men are not so ignorant and small minded.

  180. Sazzi Boo says:

    Im a Bi-sexual, and some of your comments are truely small minded. I know they are your oppinions and I respect them. Fair does, I am indecisive in general, but, in the case of my sexuality, its totally different. I just like men and women but I like women a hell of alot more. A lil while ago it was the opposite. Recently, Ive done some soul searching and what not to see if I was actually a lesbian because i just had no interest in being wit a man and was just focused on women. I t took me a while but I’ve realized I am bi and theres nought I can do about it!!! at the end of the day IM JUST ME!! I’m a 80/20 split to women Bisexual Stem! Love me or Hate me; Ur choice…

    And why do lesbians think bisexuals are gonna cheat?! I know so many lesbians that cheat and bi people that dont. Gay men think this way too.. but why??

    so much more I wanna say but nomore typin power..

  181. Thirteen says:

    My tuppence:
    Inside by own skull, I tend think of myself as gay, but if asked, I’ll usually describe myself as homoflexible.

    Like most people, I’m not all the way at one end of the Kinsey scale and can’t rule out the possiblity that I might at some point want to have sex with a man, particulary if it’s someone I already loved and trusted as a friend (enough to look past the obvious issues of gender). I haven’t wanted to sleep with a man in the last five years or so, but that’s not really the point.

    I used to consider myself completely bisexual (I was and am poly, in addition to that). I had sex and relationships with members of both genders, including one lasting several years with a pre-op M>F transwoman.

    It’s a little hard to pin-point exactly when the male half of the gender lost its sexual appeal for me. I fell head-over-heels in ultimately doomed love and lust with a woman (and I don’t usually do the “love” thing). A relationship with a man who’d for years been my close friend, lover and confidante fell apart badly. Physically, penises never really did it for me but I began to find them a specific turn-off, rather than something that didn’t much bother me one way or the other.

    Coming out as gay in a community that knew and supported me as a bisexual was a little difficult. Coming out to myself was even harder. I questioned myself and my motivations a lot. My close friends, gay, bi and straight were amazing. I’m also part of a wider fetish and recreational sex scene. There was a little confusion there, particularly among guys who’d known me as bi and who I still regarded as friends. It was generallly good natured confusion. There was some pushiness from a few men who didn’t know me but who were just bemused by the fact that a lesbian was going to predomiately straight/bi clubs (mostly to catch up with friends).

    The confusion is probably exacerbated by the fact that there’s some division between my sexual orientation, my take on friendly flirting, and my role as a domme. I’ll happily flirt with and tease members of either gender; that has little to do with actual sex, it’s just part of the way I interact with the world. I domme both men and women – some of my favourite play partners are male. Play with men is, for me, more about power than sex. With women, I find a greater balance between the two. I can see how easily I spread confusion, so I usually try to be upfront about my orientation and habits, even if it does take a fair bit of explaining.

    As for bisexuals: I love them. Accepting one’s own equal potential for love with both genders is a powerful and challenging thing. I even like the bi-curious and the weekend warriors, as long as they’re upfront about it. I recently had fun sex with a bi-girl whose boyfriend, although present and participating, was enough of a gentleman never to touch me during our session.

    I do admittedly sometimes get a faint feeling that a bi woman is letting the side down when she’s in a relationship with a man, but that has far more to do with feelings I experienced about myself during my bi years than anything else. Like any other knee-jerk reaction, I don’t let that determine my actions. Hell, my best friend is a man, and I’d never begrudge him any woman – there’s no reason to assume that men make less fit partners than women; many of them are great people.

    My girlfriend describes herself as predominately straight. I just happen to be the person she’s in love with. I’m also the first women she’s ever been with. It’s not always easy (although I’m used to attracting straight women, which can be both fun and frustrating), and she’s still refining her sexual style, but I think no less of her for liking men. If I have the right to admire a pretty girl on the tube, she certainly has every right to eye up the arse on some boy she likes the look of.

    Ultimately, IMO, the bisexuals are right: it’s about who you love.
    Everything else is just a question of what your usual type is.

  182. Mele says:

    I don’t know if I’ve gotten more answers or questions after reading this article and the comments it has generated.

    For one, this is the first I’ve heard of a “gold star” and have to say, the concept of it seems really sort of dorky to me. The fact that it even exists, along with some of the opinions stated about bisexuals, straight women, straight men, and gay men, leaves me with a question:

    Am I to infer that the majority of readers to this site reside in major metropolitan areas with fairly large GBLT populations?
    I ask because honestly, some of posts seem to take for granted that an insular and self-involved lesbian community is even possible.

    Where I reside, in a midsized Midwestern city surrounded by a seemingly endless rural expanse within the United States, such a cocoon of exclusivity just isn’t going to happen. I don’t have the “luxury” of deciding that I won’t associate with bisexuals, or straight women, or straight men. If I tried, I wouldn’t really be left with very many friends at all.

    That doesn’t even begin to touch on the implications that my own status as a lesbian can only be validated by others based off with whom I associate, whether I am political enough, or how long my hair happens to be, so on and so forth. It’s impossible to keep a response to concise and coherent if I tried to address every single idea put forth here that I find questionable.

    This was a pretty big can of worms to open.

  183. Esotaria says:

    Thirteen, I had a few questions and was wondering if you might email me when you get a chance.

    And, no it’s not a pick up line…

    Namaste,
    Esotaria@yahoo.com

  184. K says:

    Karma -

    I can think of nothing more delightful than the idea of never having to explain why my orientation is real, valid, and and as deserving of respect as any other; however, we’re clearly not at that stage yet, so I don’t shy from being open to discussion.

    It’s a shame you chose to go for personal insults rather than engaging on the points raised. Don’t worry – I’m not in a strop, just mildly disappointed at a lost opportunity to have an interesting conversation. Still, I hope that at some point down the line, you’ll be in a position to discuss the topic in a medium that’s more comfortable for you, as there are so many great opportunities for lesbians and bi women to act as friends and allies.

  185. Dave says:

    WOW, what an epic post!

    Seems there are a few threads running here and here’s what I think:

    1. LABELS
    We’re so busy labelling people as A B or C etc. It’s just human nature to try to make order out of a disordered world. Don’t forget the reality that there’s a *very* broad spectrum. Take a look at the following list and just think doesn’t this make a mockery of the whole post title? What are we really talking about here or in similar debates? Examples of “what is queer”:
    1. queer person with NOOO interest in opposite sex.
    2. As for 1, except that occasional uncontrollable fantasy or dreams involving opposite sex. Don’t dare tell your friends in 1 above!
    3. As for 1, but has a handful of rare conscious thoughts about opposite sex -but doesn’t want these thoughts and doesn’t act on it. ONLY has relationships with same sex (long term or short term, just like anyone might).
    4. As for 3, but DOES try out opp sex once (and doesn’t like it).
    5. As for 4, and repeats it quite a few times.
    6. As for 3, but does try opp sex once (and DOES like it).
    7. As for 6, and repeats it quite a few times.
    …at what point are we encountering what people call “BI”?
    .
    …as for 3-7 above, but repress it (or genuinely forget it in their subconscious) and still call themselves “GAY”.
    .
    …as for 3-7 above and call themselves “BI”.
    .
    .
    .
    50. Queer attracted to both sexes, but prefers same sex than opposite sex, and ONLY has relationships with same sex due to PREFERENCE.
    51. As for 50 but does so because they REPRESS desires for opp sex, eg due to pressure from peer group.
    .
    .
    59. Queer person who is attracted x% same sex and y% opp sex (not that you can define that) and who has regular relationships with both, whether monogamous or group/swing etc.
    .
    .
    64. As for 50, but prefers opposite sex. And ONLY has relationships with opposite sex due to pressure of conforming with social norms.
    .
    .
    a million other groups
    .

    200 onwards: see points 1-7 but swap “queer” for “straight” and swap “opposite” for “same”
    206. Straight person with NOOO interest in same sex, but who is gay-friendly.
    207. Straight person with NOOOO interest in the same sex.
    208. As for 207, but a bigoted queer-hater.
    (I know I missed a lot out! including myself)

    There are so many of us, can’t we just live and let live?
    …We are all a minority with something to fight for -together.

    2. CHOICE MAY NOT EXIST AND CHOICE IS NOT ALWAYS A PRIVILEGE
    Coming out as gay is hard enough for a lot of people, even in modern times (and I’m talking the lucky world of places like US & UK here!). Want to try coming out as “something in-between” or “BI”? You just lost your privileged position in hetero-club AND your same/opposite sex partner is often horrified AND the gays sometimes struggle to accept you. You lose every time! Sure, there are *some* “BIs” who have pretty wild sex lives and handle it well. And also, for a LOT of “BIs” they have to make a choice at some point (or love chooses it for them perhaps), and they have to cut off that other part of them. Maybe they shouldn’t repress. Pls don’t think we’ve got it easy!

    3. IT IS ABOUT WHO YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH. (As well as who turns you on.)

    4. MINORITY GROUPS: If you are in a minority, whatever it may be (tranny, communist, gay, or whatever) then absolutely you have to get solidarity within that group in order to develop any kind of recognition or win rights from the outside world. So it’s easy to understand the feeling from SOME “lesbians” that “bi” women are undermining what they stand for. They also often can’t be totally sure where their “bi” girlfriend might disappear off to next. It doesn’t matter whether this is perception or real. Maybe it’s disappointing, but it’s also disappointing that society at large is really really bad at how they treat “lesbians” in particular I think. Gay rights and attitudes to homosexuality have improved so much over the years, but there is a lot more to do still.

    Hope people find the above interesting and nothing offensive.
    (I am just a 34 y-o BI guy, by the way, sometimes dress a bit girly. Plenty of gay/bi/straight/whatever friends. And NO I do not EVER lurk around lesbians normally. Just a few things that happened to me recently made me want to check this out and I stumbled across this v interesting discussion!)

  186. polly styrene says:

    “”For one, this is the first I’ve heard of a “gold star” and have to say, the concept of it seems really sort of dorky to me….

    Am I to infer that the majority of readers to this site reside in major metropolitan areas with fairly large GBLT populations?
    I ask because honestly, some of posts seem to take for granted that an insular and self-involved lesbian community is even possible.”"

    Well I live in such an area,and I know a fair amount of lesbians who’ve never had sex with men, but nobody uses the phrase ‘gold star lesbian’ here either.I think it was on an episode of the L word actually.

  187. Verena says:

    A good article, and interesting thread. I am a happily, monogamously married (to a man) bisexual woman. I now essentially live as a straight woman, but when I was single I dated women and spent a lot of time in the lesbian community until I got sick of being treated differently because I was bi and “girly.” This was before the age of the internet and it was quite lonely. I ended up not dating for several years. I have been told by people that they don’t believe bisexuals can be monogamous. Why do they believe a married person can resist temptation from one sex but not from two? If a man is married to a blonde, can he not resist brunettes?

  188. Bobbi says:

    I am so thankful for this article and discussion thread. It really jumped out at me, not only because it’s a question I’ve been asking for years, but also because earlier this evening I was watching a documentary on LOGO about bi-sexuality. It’s great to see my questions, concerns, and experiences shared by others. I don’t feel so lonely and confused now. Who would have ever thought that sometimes, coming out as bi-sexual in the gay community would be just as hard as coming out gay can sometimes be in the hetero community. Thanks to all who contributed whether I agree with you or not.

  189. Brittany. says:

    Well, Im brittany and i am 15yrs old. I’ve had this little urge of attraction to girls pratically all my life. And when i was 13 my first kiss was with a girl, but i didn’t think anything of it because it just happened. Now as a freshman in highschool ive met this girl that i REALLY like and a couple girls i feel attracted to and i now “label” myself as Bisexual.

    I hate being labeled and/or looked at like “wow you don’t look gay.. Oh well i’ll turn you Straight (Or in other situations) oh i’ll turn you straight lesbian” … That makes me really upset because as an individual i feel as if i can love anyone (Not just one orientation). Other people think that im going threw a phase or that its just my hormones But its not i’ve always had the attraction.

    People test me by saying “Well do you see yourself marrying a man or women” and i say it dosen’t matter as long as i am in love and happy. Even thow i’ve never dated a girl, i’ve had relations with girls and pretty soon i plan on finding someone that i do plan on having a long-term relationship with (man or women). People as well say ” well don’t you want kids” I say if marry a men, so be it. If i marry a women and we want children we can always adopt as well as the other was to have children.

    So, A little help here… How should i cope or am i doing fine with the state of mind that i have now?

  190. K says:

    Brittany, you’re doing fine.

    It really isn’t anyone else’s place to decide what your orientation is – only YOU know for sure.

    You’re 15. That means you have plenty of time to explore your feelings and to come to any conclusions (not to mention long-term relationships). Don’t put any pressure on yourself – one of the gifts of middle age is being able to look back and realise that, really, life is one long experience of change and growth. There is always time to change, always time to grow. In fact, if you’re not growing and changing, shedding beliefs/behaviours that no longer serve your physical and psychological health, refining core values, and allowing healthy transformations to take place regardless of whether or not the people around you want them to… well, that’s not living; it’s just barely existing.

    Live, kiddo. Love who you love; trust yourself; let peace, truth, and integrity be the lenses you examine yourself and others through; learn to create and maintain healthy boundaries (which may shift over time). Be you. No-one else can possibly do that for you.

    And because I wish 15-year old me had had access to Pema Chodron’s work [www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema], I highly recommend that you get your mitts on her books. They are short, simple, profound, and work with any belief system. They are all about learning to be who YOU are, no matter who that may be.

    Keep on keeping on, girl.

  191. Allie says:

    I am sick and tired of women finding reasons to hate other women.
    After reading this, i turn to the depressing realisation that the sisterhood if ever it was alive is now dead.
    The non-judgemental support of our fellow women in their choices, in their identities, in their innateness is surely more important than one upwomanship.
    Some of you should hang your heads.

  192. n says:

    One of the most difficult things about being bi is when a guy is chatting me up and asks the dreaded ‘so, do you have a boyfriend?’ question. If I say I’m gay or that I have a girlfriend, I sometimes get a skeevy response but most of the time it’s a slightly awkward response and then acceptance. But if I say I’m bi, that’s always taken as an excuse to move into my personal space (sometimes with leg/arm touching), and ask completely inappropriate questions about my private life and sexual history.

    This has lead to the invention of David, the tall, rugby playing and *very jealous* fake boyfriend. Useful things, fake boyfriends.

  193. Richard says:

    Bi guys face pretty much the same issues as bi girls.

    We face both homophobia from the straight community, and biphobia from the gay community.

    Straight guys don’t want to have anything to do with me when they find out that I have a crush on them.

    Gay guys can be even worse. There’s this gay guy on YouTube named Euroboy11 who kept spamming negative comments about bisexuality such as “bi is a lie”, “bi rhymes with lie and die”, and “stamp the B out of LGBT! Yes we can!”

    On top of that, the media considers female bisexuality to be desirable, whereas the media almost completely ignores the mere existence of male bisexuality :(

  194. K says:

    Excellent point, Richard.

    Female homo/bisexuality can be commodified and sold to titillate straight men; gay and bi men, though, not so much.

    Wouldn’t it be nice to be treated like humans instead of portmanteaus for everything that disturbs others about gender?

  195. Scotty says:

    I really liked how well-written tis article was…I can relate to the biphobia more so than the homophobia, in my own experiences anyway. What I always hear from lesbian women in my area is that “us bi-babies” are making a mockery of the cause…I’m sorry, I just thought I was being an individual and following my heart; being human and not hurting anyone. I don’t critisize others for their life choices and I just want the same respect. Is that asking too much?

  196. Naomi says:

    I’m sternly against biphobia, but a huge problem I have with (some) bisexuals is that they always go on and on about how they “love the person, not the gender” as if gays and straights see nothing in a person other than their genitals. Yes, we love the person too. Yes, we we care how they make us feel and what they represent. We don’t just care what’s in their pants. That would be saying that all non-bisexuals are interested in is sex, which is very not true. Bisexuals, be careful when you make this statement, because it’s just as judgmental as calling someone a “fence-sitter.”

  197. h.m.mmmm says:

    I really really enjoyed this article, Ive been feeling this way about my bisexuality for a long time- like when I say Im bi to Lesbians I get a different response than when they just think Im straight or gay. For example I had a roommate last year who wanted to ask me a question about when I realized I was attracted to girls and she prefaced it in a very condescending way by saying “you’re sometimes kinda into girls right?” As if Im some flighty hornball who only likes women when I feel like messing around.
    I think this plays into the psychological idea of ‘othering’. The majority of people ‘Other’ gays because they are the minority and within the gay community they ‘Other’ bisexuals because they are also the minority. when a group (like many lesbians) feels discriminated against they in turn belittle another group to make themselves feel better. No offense meant to any lesbians! Most people dont even realize they do it, its a psychological response. Anyway, just thought Id throw in my two cents, thanks so much for the great article.

  198. Bjoaka says:

    Karma ~ I don’t agree with your parallel of ‘I want to stay and I want to go’, or ‘I want to talk and I want to be quiet’ (although i have experienced those paradoxes) to me bisexuality is more like; I love trees and I love flowers, I love Mexico, and I love Nepal, I love dancing, and I love sitting at the beach. I love men and I love women, and I love to be alone. Physical intimacy is just a beautiful thing, and a way of being close to someone… am I confused? Not at all ~ it’s just all too beautiful.

    big love, xox Bjoaka

  199. Jess says:

    A great article that really resonated with me. I’ve known I’m a bisexual girl for a very long time, or at least I have been aware of an equal attraction to men and to women since my early teens. I just assumed everyone was that way and I had a big surprise when I discovered this wasn’t the case!

    I think biphobia sad. A lot of people outside the LGBT community have a perception that people inside the community are open-minded and accepting, when clearly LGBT people can be just as judgemental as anyone else. I was shocked and hurt when a gay friend of mine said something disparaging about a lesbian couple we know, and there are some people I just avoid discussing my bisexuality with because I know from what they’ve commented in the past it would just be judgemental and offensive.

    Perception of gays and lesbians is gradually changing. People don’t immediately assume these people are promiscuous or more likely to cheat any more. I applaud this changing perception…I just wish the perception of bisexuals would change with it. I am a highly monogamous person and I cannot abide cheating; just because I am attracted to both men and women doesn’t mean I will act on my attraction!

  200. sunnyday says:

    Interesting discussion.

    I find it sad that there is obviously so much negativity towards people who are bisexual.

    I think it is silly to assume that bisexual people can’t stay in permanent monogamous relationships because they will miss sleeping with the other sex. Why? Because in any monogamous relationship you are excluding yourself from a relationship with other people you find attractive, other people who might meet some sexual needs that your chosen partner can’t. (and just ordinary needs too, like one potential partner might be funny and know how to mend cars while the other has a wonderful singing voice and patience.) There is no reason to think a bisexual will have anymore difficulty in a monogamous relationship then any other sexual orientation – its not like the bisexual person is being asked to give up relationships and sex altogether!

    I like the idea someone mentioned of gays and lesbians and heterosexuals using ‘bisexual space’. If it is viewed like that it gives a different perspective on the main things that seems to bother people about those who identify as bisexual ie that bisexuals are just experimenting or are just homosexuals who are afraid to come out. It suggests it is the bisexual space that is being invaded and implies it is not so much bisexuals who are confused but the lesbians and straights who falsely claim that identity.

    Viewing it as bisexual ‘space’ that is being invaded could be used to suggest that rather than gays and straights being ‘at risk’ from bisexuals, bisexuals are at risk from both the gay and heterosexual community trying to assume an inauthentic bisexual identity. The bisexual community is then left to deal with the straights and gays who are hiding in the bisexual community and giving it a bad reputation.

    It seems to me, from reading this thread, that almost all of the biphobia can be related to the assumption that the infiltrators from the straight and gay community who put on a mask of bisexuality are in fact bisexuals when actually this is just confusing the mask with reality.

    (I’m not saying this is my view just that it is something Im considering)

  201. Amanda says:

    I think bisexual people get a bad rap because lesbians have to struggle to be recognised and taken seriously. Men think lesbians are for them so when a female says she is bisexual, a lot of lesbians think ” oh christ here we go” and think girls are doing it just to get men Unfortunetly a lot of girls do this and then it gives a bad name to true lesbians and true bisexuals.I am a lesbian and have no sexual interest at all in men, not one bit but everytime i come out to someone as a lesbian, because i dont fit the stereotype, they assume im bisexual even though ive just told them im gay!!

  202. Dude says:

    Why do lesbians need a “culture” anyway? Why does any sexual orientation need a “culture”? Just be who you are and live. Isn’t that what we all want? If you’re gay, just be gay! Don’t start a club. You’re alienating people and it’s counter productive. I hate when I hear people talk about the “queer scene” like it’s punk rock or hip hop. Those are movements. Sexuality is not a movement, it’s a part of life. If you want to be accepted, then stop encouraging elitist “movement” ethics. It’s lame.

  203. sara says:

    “dude”- everyone else has a culture, why shouldn’t the queer community? the queer community needs a support network and safe places to patronize, as does any other group. it’s called heteronormativity and it’s so entrenched in popular culture that you don’t see it, obviously. how about you go ahead and wipe out the expectations that gender is presented as a dichotomy and the queer community can come out. you have the expectation here that sexuality operates completely independent of gender expression and in some instances it does but often the two play together and creates tension in most heterosexual arenas. besides, when i go clubbing i don’t want a man hitting on me, dancing on me, or getting pissed off when i reject him (all of which happens when i patronize the straight club scene).
    i am what’s considered a “gold star”- i think the term is ridiculous as well but i’m not going to apologize for not wanting to have sex with men. i have never gotten butterflies in my stomach with men the way i do with women… i’m currently dating a bisexual woman whom i love with all my heart but i admit i get a little queasy when she talks about men’s bodies and personally, my fear is that one day i will no longer be what she wants physically. BUT, i realize that i can have that fear with any partner i’d ever have regardless of their sexuality. so, i just let her be her beautiful self and enjoy it.

    thanks for the forum.

  204. J says:

    I don’t hate bisexuals, I just don’t date them. Big difference. I would prefer not go down on a girl only to find her dripping with man splooge.

  205. lacey says:

    no need for that last comment.

  206. curious says:

    Are there otherwise gold star lesbians who do other acts with men besides PIV? You don’t hear about this anywhere. Would that be considered bi, and not gold?

  207. Tiq says:

    Wow… I just happened to find this page after boredom and curiosity led me to google. I’ve sat and read through thia entire page in the space of a few hours (leading to a rather quickly diminishing pack of cigarettes I might add, after several comments left me in dire need of a ciggie, and a moment to collect my thoughts)

    Ok, first of all I would be remiss if I didn’t indulge anyone reading this, in some background personal info.

    I’m 23 years old… I only came to terms with my bisexuality a few years ago, after spending the majority of my childhood and teenage years in a depression that I’ve only recently overcome round about hitting the big 2-0.

    There where two major factors in me coming to terms with my bisexuality… one of which was befrending an extremely open bisexual women who’s general attitude made me start to realise a few home truths, and the other came shortly afterwards when I ended up in a relationship with a straight friend of the previously mentioned bi girl, which made me realise very quickly that if I wanted to be in a meaningful relationship with someone I had to be completely and utterly honest with them from the word go, about my sexual preferences.

    Having said that, there’s something I’d like to share, as it falls in line with the old “bisexuals can’t be faithful in a relationship” bullshit.

    At some point or another my bi friend got involved with a straight male… and sat him down one night to tell him that under no circumstances was he allowed to feel hurt or angry if she went off and fucked any random woman she pleased, because “she’s bi, and this is a part of her that he just can’t satisfy” I spent several weeks being condescended to by BOTH of them, when I insisted that bisexuality was not an excuse for unfaithfulness. (From her, because she loved having an excuse to cheat on him, and from him because he was so whipped he felt the need to stick up for his new bisexual partner, even if it left him feeling like shit)

    I’ve just spent the last few weeks explaining biphobia to a straight male friend of mine, as he is now involved in a serious relationship with a bisexual female, and she has a hard time getting him to understand how hard it can be, sometimes for open bisexuals.

    The fact of the matter is lesbians and gays don’t hate bisexuals… insecure, intolerant morons hate bisexuals and these people should be ashamed of themselves, for perpetuating the exact form of bullshit hatred that drives so many gay and bisexual men and women to suicide. Your no better than homophobic hetero’s, and you need to get a fucking grip of yourselves.

    Yes, the world would be a wonderful place, if we all loved each other for being good people instead of hating others due to moronic, small minded pig-ignorance. But alas, the cold hard reality is that stupidity thrives in all walks of life, in all manner of people, and biphobia is a testament to this… as mentioned before, we are the minority of the minority, and rather than having an “easier time of it” as some biphobes may believe, we suffer from hatred from both small minded heterosexuals and homosexuals alike.

    And let me just say one thing to the generally confused and/or biphobes out there who may be reading this… the fact that I’m a large, masculine looking bisexual male doesn’t protect me from dealing with cries of faggot when I decide to indulge my more… flamboyant personality quirks in public. It also doesn’t protect me from the pain of losing people I considered to be good friends, when I alert them of my sexuality and find out they are homophobic. I’m insulted by the notion that somehow bisexuals are less deserving of respect, because we can “dip in and out” Coming to terms with bisexuality is just as fucking terrifying a prospect as coming to terms with homosexuality, and at the end of the day, any bisexual with self respect and integrity is going to recieve just as much scrutiny and hatred from ignorant morons as their homosexual bretherin… the only difference is we also have to deal with intolerance from within the very community that are SUPPOSED TO BE FUCKING SUPPORTING US.

    I’m not going to tar the lesbian or gay community with the biphobic brush… I’ve known plenty of wonderful gay men and women out there who treat me with respect as well as far more ignorant G&L than I’d like to admit to, but at the end of the day I’m smart enough to realise that these people are just as bad if not worse than the very “evil homophobes” that they angrily cry out against, and on the whole, these people are alarmingly detached from reality and not indicative of the G&L community at large…

    At best they are sympathetic, confused children to be pitied and hopefully enlightened and at worst they are horrendous human beings who do nothing but undermine the GLBT scene with their hatred and are scarily akin to the FemiNazi morons out there who serve to trivialise the feminist movement for equality, desperately searching instead for superiority.

    Oh and don’t get me wrong, by the way… I’m not attempting to demonise those of you out there, who have had bad experiences with bi-curious individuals and are afraid of getting burned again… I sympathise with all of you, because believe it or not BISEXUALS HAVE TO FUCKING DEAL WITH THIS AS WELL, JUST AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE, which… to be honest is the only real point that I feel has gone slightly amiss, to those of you out there who say you have fears of being cheated on by bi’s, because at the end of the day it’s immature and and somewhat arrogant to assume that gay men and women are the only people who have suffered at the hands of bi-curious insensitivity.

    ALSO: I’ve been verbally accosted by more than a handful of angry lesbians, about “being greedy” but that doesn’t mean I assume all gay women are insensitive fuckwits, out to discriminate me. Because I have common fucking sense, and I know it would be wrong to do so. So even though I’m not comparing all of you out there who had bad experiences with bi’s as bad as the likes of the shameful asteroid, quoted much earlier in the page… I still think it’s fucking naive and offensive to pre-emptively judge bisexuals because of a few childish morons, and you should definitely have a quick word with yourselves.

    Since this post came off a tad more aggresive than I’d intended, I’d just like to add something a little more positive by saying that I utterly adore those of you out there who are commited to the most important part of the GLBT community… which is encouraging people to be proud of their harmless personality traits as I think individualism is a sadly underappreciated commodity. So thank you very much to all the Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transexuals out there who help the lost and confused… be they straight, gay or “curious”.

  208. Estraven says:

    Thanks, curious. You are wise for your age. To the people who are afraid their bi partner would cheat on them for a partner of another gender with something they don’t have, no one of any gender can possibly satisfy all of their partner’s every desire. My husband’s perfect woman is a big-titted redhead, while I am a small-breasted brunette, but I don’t worry about him cheating on me because I can’t meet his need for enormous boobs because I trust him, and I know he loves me. It strikes me that people who are always worrying about their partner cheating on them are insecure, and need to work on their own issues, not blame an entire sexual orientation for their own lack of self-confidence.

  209. G Johnson says:

    I am pretty disgusted by bisexual women.
    I wish it weren’t true…I haven’t had any negative experiences with a woman as a direct result of her bisexuality.
    I’ve been quite lucky in love and have enjoyed many relationships with women over the last 20 plus years that I’ve been dating…I’ve dated several bi women cos I liked them but I must say I was pretty disgusted by them the entire time.
    Right now…I find myself feeling sick to my stomach to hear my present girlfriend talk about her exes. I am repulsed but I like her I keep trying to get over it. Yet, I am still disgusted almost daily by the thought.
    Despite positive, loving experiences I still believe bi women to be untrustworthy, tainted, dirty and whore-ish.
    I wish I didn’t feel this way but I do. I so totally do.

  210. Malene says:

    G Johnson,

    I am disgusted by your attitude. I wish I didn’t feel that way, but I do. I so totally do.

  211. evey says:

    What’s really disturbing to me is the constant use of words like ‘whore’ and ‘tainted’… these words are inherently sexist and rooted in the patriarchal, medieval idea of women as not sexual. ‘Tainted’ suggests that to be pure or whole a woman must not be sexual or have multiple sexual partners. We’re all women here, we shouldn’t be using words like this against one another, it just makes it okay for men to do it.

  212. Liv says:

    @Tina, Asteroid, Out of closet, Karma, G Johnson: AMEN.

    I really don’t like bisexuals because they’re fence jumpers. Do we have to relate because we know how hard coming out in this world is? Hell no. I don’t understand why I should accept and deal with the fact that my gf can desire a man, his body, his attitude. I’m a woman, and if my gf loves me, I want it to be ALSO because she likes my woman attributes and dislikes men’s. I’m a lesbian, I like girls exclusively, and I like girls who like girls exclusively, just as I do. Is it wrong to expect my lover to see in me what I see in her? I fell in love with her because she’s a female (including her tits and vagina). She could be the same “person” with a penis, I’d still like the qualities she has, but I wouldn’t fall in love.

    I don’t know if some of you had ever experienced this, but I know what it feels like to hear “I love you baby, only you, I’m faithfull and will always be because I love a person and not a gender (…blah blah…) I don’t like labels and can’t (don’t want to?) define myself because I can’t fit in the 3 main labels – straight, bi, homo. I’m just me, I love you, I just don’t fall in love exclusively with girls”. Then, even after 6 years, she still has a hard time to hide how hard it is for her to go down on you. You feel like there’s really something wrong, sometimes like if she’s disgusted. Sorry baby, I don’t have a cock and thank God I will never do. 6 years later, I still wonder why she is with me, a lesbian, if:

    1) She isn’t craving for my body when we have sex like I am for hers

    2) We don’t have sex more than twice a month (if I get lucky) despite my desire and love

    3) She doesn’t want to put a label on her orientation/feelings/needs/identity – what makes her what she is

    4) She waited for 4 years and a half, and me harassing her, to finally admit she can’t identify as a lesbian (sometimes you just feel when something is wrong)

    5) She does not accept to answer my questions (fear, jealousy… she could tame these feelings but she won’t), get angry and blame it on me, while she thinks it’s legitimate to hate my ex and the feelings I had for her

    6) She struggles with any kind of boundaries: I want to legalize our union, I want kids. Fun thing is, I’m the lesbian, she’s the whatever the heck she calls that (or not, for that matter) and I’m the one who wants to build something, she “can’t think that far ahead”. If we were together for 6 months or a year I would understand, but 6 YEARS?

    7) We came out to my parents, but I’m barely in the picture when it comes to her family (no need to add that she did’t mention she’s in love with me, or that she likes girls). Oh and btw, we live together for 4 years now.

    Bisexuals are just traitors in disguise, they can’t tell a person what they are at the beginning of a relationship and don’t give the CHOICE to go away if we don’t want this. We lose years of our lives loving someone who doesn’t fully share our world, we hope to build a life with a person we love but we can’t have a chance to do that because they are undecided.

    I thought I could get over it during the past year, but when I tried to talk about it (yeah, sometimes I need to understand and I need to feel secure, I’m human) last week, she just shut me down, telling me “why do you care that much?”. Oh right, she’s with me so I can’t ask anything when I feel I need to.

    I’m loving her so much that it hurts. I want to spend my whole life with her so bad, but I feel like shit when I realize that she does not look in the same direction than me. It’s been 6 years now, but I’m seriously considering leaving her because I can’t take it no more. I know there’s is no real future to hope for.

    She’s the best and the worst thing that happened to me. Since I know she’s bisexual, I feel like hell. I can’t feel like this forever. I deserve better, someone who loves me but also respect who I am, is honest with me and like to share my bed. Someone who I can hope to build my life with.

  213. glowingshine says:

    I have been out as a lesbian for almost 6 months now. I’m not out to everyone, only a few friends and my sister, all of which supports me a lot. I have made a few of my past assumptions on bisexual women by personal experiences, and the large majority of the bisexual women around where I live. I know its wrong to make an opinion based on the ones in my area and my past but I’m fessing up to the fact that I did that. The large majority of the bisexual women here would only date a lesbian girl if their boyfriends/husbands were out of town, or if they needed money and their boyfriends/husbands wouldn’t give them any. Whenever the boyfriends/husbands would come back into town, they would toss their relationship with the lesbian girls out the window. It was really sad to see this. I mean the guys would literally beat up or trying to beat up the lesbian girls, because their bisexual girlfriends would tell them the lesbian girls raped them or tried to rape them. That sounds very bad but sadly it is all true, I was there to witness and hear it a lot of this stuff myself. You maybe wondering how I knew these girls were bi?, well the girls were pretty much open about having sex with girls (behind their boyfriends/husband back) and wore the “bi” label proudly so to speak.

    So for a while I was showing some well a lot of bias views toward bisexual women, but it wasn’t toward all of them, just toward the ones who liked men more than women (which represented those types in my area) and the ones who said they like men and women equally, but for the types that like women more than men I tell myself sorta and maybe I am generalizing here some what that they are lesbians but can’t really come out the way they want to which I do/would understand that they could be in a rock and a hard place. But again maybe i’m generalizing based on my area.
    I’m working on by bias views toward the bi women who like men and women equally but I can’t get this thought out of my head. My thought is “The reason they like men and women equally is because they get the love and support and fulfilling relationship from one gender and the ‘amazing sex’ from the other gender which they will never have a meaningful relationship with thus resulting in can’t having one without the other one. Maybe I am off about this and then again maybe not, but I am open to suggestions and please correct me if I am wrong.

    Since I was turning as new of a leaf as I could, I decided to date a few bisexual women that I met and got along with very well. I met them all across the internet on dating sites and some were from social networking sites, I talk back and forth with them for a little while and then we decide to meet with each other in person. To my disarray and surprise (since I got along almost perfectly online/over the phone with all the girls I met), they would tell me they were not interested at first glance or they would never date girls “my size”. You might have guessed by that line that I am of plus size, but i’m a medium small plus size girl if that make sense. As for my dressing style, I like to dress up if I need to for a party or any other kind of formal event, but i like to wear causal clothes i’m a t-shirt jeans kinda girl. But anyway some of them looked at me in disgust when they saw me, and trust me I could see it on their faces clearly as I would approach them. Some looked at me blank like they didn’t know what to say or how to react, like they had never seen anyone like me before and some would be cordial so I didn’t over stay my welcome. You know those awkward silence moments when someone just doesn’t want to talk to you? thats what I was getting no matter how hard I tried to lighten the mood… Out of all the bisexual women I did date, there is only one who keeps in contact with me. I guess she had a heart after she told me I wasn’t her type and seen the expression of “well here is another let down”on my face, and as I was turning away to leave, she stopped me and decided to just finish the date. At least this one did laugh at some of the things I was saying. We are good friends so it wasn’t a total waste…right?

    After those experiences, I decided to go back to just dating lesbians(sorry I didn’t mention that sooner). But I wanted to make sure that I wouldn’t get the same response from the lesbian women as I got from the bi-women (since I had gain some weight which got me to a medium small plus size after several failed diet attempts), I did some research a lot of it and over all I found that most lesbians like a woman with confidence, so I thought this is perfect I have high confidence in myself and i’m not depressive (a stereotypical term a lot of people have put over plus size women’s heads). To my considerable disappointment, almost all of the lesbians that I wrote to or emailed over a period of weeks to months didn’t give me a response, period. Only one woman wrote me back, and guess what, we are friends to, but I guess you can never have too many actual good friends now can you?

    It has been extremely tough for me trying to find a girl friend since I have come out, but I am keeping positive, I do know that there is somebody out there for everyone. I didn’t allow those bad experiences to turn my heart into self hatred or what I stand for as a person or I should say as a imperfect person with flaws like everybody else, that’s the most important thing I can feel in my life. Well thats all I wanted to say and thank you for reading.

  214. Kay says:

    @Liv

    It sounds like you’re going through the ringer with this relationship. I’ve a straight male friend who could have written that about his straight girlfriend word for word, and it’s hard watching that relationship. Neither of them are happy with it, both of them get upset and angry with each other about it, and no change is happening.

    I’ve seen too many people, straight and queer, caught up in relationships that drag on for months and years, just getting more miserable. I’m in my 40s, and a lot of people in my age group have been in these relationships for a decade or more. I used to roll my eyes at the idea of therapy, but I reached the point a few years ago where I realised that it can really help, whether it’s counselling to help one partner work out what they want and whether to walk or couples counselling for both of them together.

    For one of my bi female friends, it helped her to leave a nearly sexless marriage to a man who was emotionally abusive, controlling, and really made her life hard. It gave her the strength to get out, focus on her own life, and later meet partners who treated her well.

    From my perspective, I’ve seen too much of the same stuff you’re talking about happening with straight people and gay men and lesbians to say that the behaviour you’re talking about is down to your girlfriend being bi. But it does sound like she has problems she needs to deal with, and it sounds like you need support to find out why you’re still in a relationship that hurts you so much, and whether you want to make it work or walk away and get yourself together on your own.

    @glowingshine

    I don’t know how old you are or where you are, but I hope you’ll meet people who are mature enough to accept you for who you are, whether that’s as friends or as a partner.

  215. Sally says:

    @Liv,

    There are a lot of similarities between your relationship and my relationship, but I am speaking from your girlfriend’s perspective. I think there is something to her refusal to approach the subject of your relationship with her family–probably a lot of deeply harbored social (religious?) guilt that is causing her confusion over her own sexuality. You have no idea how demobilizing it is for her to feel so torn between making her parents happy and making you, the one person she loved so much she chose to live with, happy. She needs you to be patient with her as she goes through the process of opening up to her family about the most significant and formative relationship of her life, yours.
    The process will not be easy, but eventually this girl needs to be able to show her parents that she is in love, and most of all, happy with you.
    The “not strictly gay but in a serious gay relationship” is NOT about her wanting to go out and sleep with men any time she likes. This is the hardest thing for you people to realize! It’s the label that terrifies her because it puts her in a compartment, when human sexuality is one of the most complex things in the world.
    After many fights with my girlfriend over this issue, I finally began to call and think of myself as a strict lesbian, yet I know that I did not always do this. I’m just one of the EXTREMELY unpopular ones who thinks of these things as a matter of choice… but you know what? I look at my life with the world’s most wonderful woman and know that I could not have made a better one.

  216. Sally says:

    The “not strictly gay but in a serious gay relationship” is NOT about her wanting to go out and sleep with men any time she likes. This is the hardest thing for you people to realize! It’s the label that terrifies her because it puts her in a compartment, when human sexuality is one of the most complex things in the world.

  217. Mel says:

    I am a bisexual woman, 40 years old, and I have never cheated on a partner of either gender.

    I have a high sex drive, and an equally high standard for myself to keep the promises I make.

    Being bisexual has nothing to do with infidelity.

    To the folks making negative blanket statements about bisexuals: I’m sorry you were betrayed. That’s wrong.

    Please reconsider the stereotypes you are putting on me, because of a dishonest person (or more than one) you know or have heard of.

    Thanks.

  218. Leah says:

    I’m sorry to hear some of you not 100% gay ladies have such horrible experiences. I use the term “not 100%” because I’m tired of labels. I myself would say I’m mostly gay if I had to label myself.

    I’m not part of the scene as such, and I’ve never had a girlfriend or anything like that. I’m really put off going to any queer bars or whatever now. I’m also pretty feminine. Due to all this people often don’t believe I’m mostly gay. They think I’m confused, especially since most of the sexual experiences I’ve had were with men. I just haven’t felt confident about chatting up women or anything.

    How common is it to experience such blatent hostility? I feel as I would have to lie about myself when I go to these places now. I already keep my full sexuality from many people as I’ve gotten such ignorant and occasionally near violent reactions. Whose damn business is it of theirs?

  219. Kaz says:

    @Naomi says

    “I’m sternly against biphobia, but a huge problem I have with (some) bisexuals is that they always go on and on about how they “love the person, not the gender” as if gays and straights see nothing in a person other than their genitals. Yes, we love the person too. Yes, we we care how they make us feel and what they represent. We don’t just care what’s in their pants. That would be saying that all non-bisexuals are interested in is sex, which is very not true. Bisexuals, be careful when you make this statement, because it’s just as judgmental as calling someone a “fence-sitter.””

    I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and it strikes me as a basic communications error, with
    two very different things are going on.

    Straight and gay people are, by definition, unconsciously filtering out potential partners based on gender.

    This is not good or bad.

    It just is. It’s like handedness or hair colour or musicality. It’s just a biological mechanism, not a deliberate moral choice, and it has no moral value in itself. It just is.

    And bi people just don’t have the same biological mechanism. We do not filter out potential mates based on gender.

    This is not good or bad.

    It just is. It’s like handedness or hair colour or musicality. It’s just a biological mechanism, not a deliberate moral choice, and it has no moral value in itself. It just is.

    So what I’m seeing here is this:

    For bi people, “Gender isn’t an issue for me. I fall for someone based solely on who they are, not on their gender” = simple description of experience.

    For straight and gay people, “Gender isn’t an issue for me. I fall for someone based solely on who they are, not on their gender” = moral judgement of your failure to be morally superior by transcending the physical and falling in love with a personality + assertion that gay and straight people only care about sex.

    Simple statement of fact is being mistaken for a massive set of cultural baggage about the body-spirit dichotomy (rooted in the idea that the spirit is superior to the body, and that carnality is base and should be denied in favour of the spirit), and about sexuality and identity.

    So bi people need to bear in mind that gay and straight people might not be hearing a simple statement of fact, but be hearing something entirely unrelated to what they’re saying, and it would be wise to see if there’s more precise language we can use, and not assuming that because it’s clear to us it’s clear to others.

    Perhaps something like “I see and appreciate the differences in bodies across genders. I don’t have a biological mechanism that steers me away from or towards a particular gender when it comes to love and attraction”?

    And gay and straight people need to bear in mind that bi people might be simply describing our experience of gender not being a deciding factor in attraction, and check in about whether or not they’re being moralised at before assuming that they are.

    Perhaps, “I want to be sure that you’re just describing your experience and not judging me for not being attracted to people of a particular gender”?

    It is hard to stop attaching our baggage to other people’s statements, because we’re not brought up to communicate clearly, effectively, and without judgement.

    It can be done, though. And the moments we manage to do it are fantastic. Marshall Rosenberg’s ‘Non-Violent Communication’ is a brilliant book on this.

    Queer people of all types really need to be looking at ways we miscommunicate and could do better at understanding each other so that we can support each other more effectively and create real, positive change in the world.

    Looking at this thread is either profoundly depressing (the drama! the venom! the lack of willingness to listen to each other or to understand that accepting someone else’s position doesn’t automatically mean your own is invalid or vice versa!), or an exercise in optimism (the people who are self-aware enough not to turn it into Us vs Them! the attempts at clarification! the opportunities for better communication!).

    We could all stand to listen more, ask questions instead of assuming, and really try to understand each other.

  220. Kam says:

    Ummm How very provocative to say Lesbians HATE bisexuals. I am a lesbian and do not hate bisexuals.
    I don’t want to date bisexual women but I am quite happy for them to be so, to be friends with them, to go out for a drink with them etc.
    I simply do not want to sleep with or be involved with a woman who also likes the penis. I am not a criminal for saying this.
    I want a woman who wants to be with only women, who desires a woman’s body only.
    I look at gay dating sites and the females who present as bisexual do seem far more likely to be only seeking sex, I can think of many bisexual profiles I have looked at where its NSA fun (no strings attached), don’t recall ever seeing a lesbian profile saying that.
    There is also the old “bi couple” thing – ultimately tedious where they think I might want to have sex with the wife – ugh, I can think of nothing I would rather do less.
    I am sure there are many bisexual women who are faithful to women when they are in a relationship but it’s like the idea of sleeping with a male to me, I just don’t wanna go there.
    Lesbians do it for me physically and emotionally and not bisexual or straight women.

  221. Kam says:

    Just want to clarify I have had no bad experiences with bisexual or straight women, not had my heart broken or been spurned either. You can’t be spurned by a group you have no romantic or sexual interest in.
    I also am not sexually attracted to men.

  222. Raven says:

    Look.. fact is..the vast majority of “bisexuals” end up with men. Let’s cut the crap and get real. For bisexuals,…women are for play/fun and men are for “serious” relationships. Notice how the majority of the bisexuals commenting on here (that have partners) are “with” MEN. Funny, isn’t it. Bisexual women USE women to get their jollies off, then when it’s time to settle down and get serious they run to men. Personally, I have no problem with bisexuals as friends, but I sure as hell don’t desire to hear about her relationships with her husband/boyfriend. Heterosexuality is shoved in our faces every damn day…all damn day. I certainly don’t desire to here it in my circle of friends. A lesbian whose in a relationship with a bisexual is doing nothing more than wasting her time because we all know what the outcome will be. You can call what im saying ignorant or whatever you like… but what you can’t call it is UNTRUE. To all Bisexuals.. just do me a favor and keep your asses on the OTHER side of the fence. Thats where you’ll all end up anyways..so please spare the lesbians the heartache. We go through enough shit without ya’ll adding on your bisexual drama. Bisexuals.. please ….KICK ROCKS!

  223. El says:

    Dear most people who have commented here. Did you read the article all the way through? And did you do it with an open mind, ready to accept it and, even if not rethinking your own opinions, still acknowledge that others have different opinions from yours? I hope you did.
    I wish you all the best and hope that you will one day grow up to be tolerant and happy. I hope for you to always be able to remember that no one person’s, group’s, country’s or indeed, anything’s way is THE way, but merely ONE way. I hope for you to be able to smile and share joys and sorrows with any one of your friends and indeed also those not your friends, because they are people, and not in your eyes defined by whether the people they fall in love with or like to have sex with have indoor or outdoor plumbing. I hope you will be as tolerant as so many others are, and spread that wisdom. I hope for you to meet many nice people that will make you a better person, and make you realise that hey, there’s a lot of bad in the world, but it’s so much more about how you choose to react to it, instead of what happens to you.

    I hope for you to always, regardless of what is done to you or who does it, be able to listen to others, to not only think for yourselves but to create new thoughts and opinions, so that you do not choose the easy way and add already-made thoughts and opinions to your own. It’s not easy. Not at all. But it’s worth trying. Stop feeling marginalised, or offended, or angry, or bitter, or whatever. It leads to nowhere but silly comments on the Internet, where words are just words and have little power except over those who let them have the power to make them upset.

    I didn’t choose for myself to become attracted to people. I’d much rather not be as attracted and fall in love as easily and preferably not with more than one at the same time either. It’s a bloody bother and it takes a lot of time to just keep calm and keep accepting it as I go along. And I’d really rather not be sexually attracted either. But I am, and I do, and so I deal with it. I don’t go about banging people and discard them. I don’t go about luring them into my bosom and then cruelly discard them because… uh, whyever one would do that. I don’t tell people I love them without meaning it, or because I just play with them.
    I do, however, talk and communicate. Always and about everything relevant. So therefore I tell people to their faces, as soon as it seems to be respectful to them to do so, that I am neither straight nor particularily monogamous or heteronormative. Then, it is up to them how to react, which, hopefully, they will be people enough to do in an honest and polite and respectful way. I will not whine if I’m not their thing – though I may cry or be sad about it later, in private. The thing is, I also expect them to act the same way towards me.
    Funny how few do. But hey, there ARE people who do!

    And if you’ve noticed something by now, I hope that it is how I use the word “people”. Sex, gender, male, female, shemale, queer, mtf, ftm, WHATEVER – it has no meaning or bearing at all. Sometimes there are boobs of varying sizes and sometimes there are cocks. It’s a side-effect of the person themselves. I fall in love with, am attracted by, people. It makes it a lot trickier to keep any sort of relation at all with most, being honest about how I am… but I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    Then again, some probably just see a woman who pretends to like girls because it’s cool. Or who can’t decide. Or who’s lesbian but doesn’t dare admit it.
    They’re wrong.

  224. Raven says:

    Since it’s become fashionable for women to call themselves bisexual, a lot of straight women are adopting the label to give themselves license to “dabble” in relationships with other women, even though they have no intention of making lifelong commitments to other females. More often than not, the minute they’ve satisfied their curiosity or finished testing their boundaries, they revert to the safety of their true heterosexual orientation. By dating a self-proclaimed bisexual, a lesbian risks being used and discarded when the other person decides she “just can’t see a future” with a woman. It’s just not worth the emotional turmoil.

  225. Ali says:

    I for one hate self-identifying as a bisexual because that label carries so many negative connotations. And yes, I get that lesbians find me risky because I have been married to a man, have long hair and a feminine body, and because I do occasionally engage in casual sex. But increasingly, I find myself physically AND emotionally attracted to women. Men bore the shit out of me these days, and I’m just not terribly impressed with penises anymore. And the last time I was in love, it was with a woman (albeit a transgendered, pre-surgery F to M, but the body parts were the same!). So what does this make me? I don’t even know anymore. All I know is that I’m sooo not interested in dating or fucking men anymore, but meeting interested lesbians or bisexual woman is damn near impossible, and it’s not because I’m unattractive or boring. So I wish I could find a lesbian who is willing to take a chance on me instead of writing me off as a confused straight girl. Cause I’m not.

  226. Jason says:

    I find this debate quite compelling, somewhat frustrating, and ultimately rewarding.

    I’m just me. I identify as heterosexual, but I think I’m more attracted to gender traits than to a sex at this point in my life (kindness, empathy, curiosity, equity).

    Thats ultimately why I find myself in this lesbian/bisexual forum. I’ve researched gay and heterosexual relationships and woman/woman pairings appear to be meaasurably emotionally closer, more equitable, more sharing…etc than other types. This is likely due to gender socialization rather than any innate differences between women/women and heterosexual relationships.

    In any case, when I’m looking for evidence that supportive relationships can exist I’m often drawn to the lesbian community.

    I few things that I’d like to pass along:

    Evidence suggests that with more social support and more barriers to break-up, non-traditional relationships last longer. Various American researchers have argued that male/male and female/female relationships have a better chance of enduring when they’ve been formalized by marriage or civil unions. Relationships also last longer when children are involved.

    In other words, significant research indicates that gay relationships don’t last as long as heterosexual relationships, but not because bisexuals are less willing to commit to same-sex partners, but rather because the relationships themselves are still not well-supported by society.

    Bisexual relationships with other gendered partners do last longer (or should last longer) because of social supports.

    Another point to consider that has already been mentioned but is important to reiterate. Bisexual women are of course more likely to wind up with men because there are many more heterosexual men than identified lesbian or bisexual women. Further, because of assumptions about sexuality it is hard for women to identify same-sex sexual attraction in a plethora of venues (work, many school settings, social gatherings, most bars, etc).

    When you combine these two sets of variables it, perhaps, paints this picture.

    women/women relationships break-up more frequently than other relationships. Once a bi-sexual women has lost her same-sex relationship, for the reasons mentioned above, amongst others, she is more likely to find herself in a straight relationship.

    This does not mean that she left her gay relationship because of an attraction to a man. In fact the research I’ve read indicates that bi-sexual women are genuinely satisfied with their identities and their attractions. They are not looking for male replacements for female partners, nor in most cases are they driven out of relationships due to the inherent fear of their same-sex status.

    That bisexual women wind up in heterosexual relationships after same sex partnerships does not necesssarily indicate anything about the value they placed on the same sex relationship. More significantly than anything else, it indicates the paucity of available same-sex partners and the current short (but lengthening) average duration of gay relationships.

    Interestingly enough, many of the bi-sexual women in this forum have indicated that they found satisfactory relationships with men who seemed to possess gender characteristics traditionally associated with women. I found that curious.

    A couple final points. On all metrics including sexual satisfaction, women-women relationships compare equitably or favourably with heterosexual relationships. So in a committed same-sex relationship, as long as the relationship is socially supported, healthy and happy, a lesbian should not fear that her bisexual partner will leave her for a man any more than a man should fear the same thing happening.

    If you want to find a similar debate to this one that has more lesbians supporting bisexuals and more bisexuals indicating that they ultimately plan to, or have settled down with other women rather than men, check out afterellen.com

    Finally, this debate has ebbed and flowed. For the greater part however, most bisexual participants have argued that they would be happy settling into a long-term relationship with the RIGHT woman. Not the right PERSON, the right WOMAN. They would be equally happy being in a relationship with the right MAN, but that doesn’t mitigate the fact that the right WOMAN is out there.

  227. rory says:

    you gotta love it; a guy comes to our forum & proceedes to inform us on bisexuals and same-sex relationships in a freakin endless post.

    clueless git.

    Now to get back to things; I too only date Lesbians, the whole guy & his nasty dick was there is an utter turn off….

  228. Sarah says:

    I don’t mind bisexuals I just would never have sex with one. Because, the thought of her having a penis in her is disgusting.

  229. Jason says:

    sorry to Rory and anyone else I may have offended. I wanted to paint an optimistic picture of something I probably can’t understand.

    I’m just so frustrated. I see so much anger and manipulation coming out of my own community (like the posts by someone named James) and I don’t like it.

    I guess the irony is by trying to take back words that others like me have spoken, I may be guilty of exactly that which repulses me.

    I’m not like James. I don’t want to tell anyone how to live. Don’t worry I won’t post again.

  230. Bella says:

    Jason, I found your post informative, sensitive and very closely reflecting my own views on the matter. You have as much right as anyone to post on this site (male, female or otherwise), especially considering the delicate way you handled the subject. Personally, I hope you exercise that right as often as possible! :)

  231. rolo says:

    my friend is bi and he came out as being bi to every one and now he wants to kill himself because everyone is being nasty to him and his friend is being nasty to him coz he’s saying that he’s not bi and he can’t prove it and i am his friend and he doesn’t have to prove it coz when your gay u know that your gay and you don’t have prove it to anyone coz when i turned gay it wasn’t a choice i’ve been lez all my life but only just relized it “baby i was born this way”:)

  232. Sunset says:

    Well, thank you for the reminders that most lesbians and gays are disgusting, worthless hypocrites. Reading the commentary here also reminds me of why I don’t care much about the so-called “LGBT community,” where being bisexual seems to be considered worse than being homophobic.

  233. Kim says:

    I dont mind bisexual women at all and would date one if i was attracted to her. Im a lesbian and like women!
    Im also femme and the treatment ‘lesbians’ have given me for being so is ridiculous as they thought i was straight or bi.
    Hatred breeds hatred im afraid!

  234. alexis says:

    Eventually you’ll learn Kim. Bisexuals are horrible for lesbian relationships. There’s a reason they have a bad reputation in the lesbian community. They use women.

  235. J McK says:

    I’m quite startled at all these responses, but then I suppose I don’t get out to Candy Bar that often. I’m 26 and bi. I’ve never messed a girl around, never dumped a woman for preference of a man and was actually engaged to a woman right up until she decided that she prefers men. It hurt. It didn’t hurt so much because she prefers men – we are each as we were meant to be – but because she chose to end it by telling me I was dumped then turning to him and sucking his face off right there on Brighton beach. That isn’t the fault of bisexuality though; that’s just childishness and bitchyness.

    I don’t opt in and out of my civil rights, I don’t make it my business to wreck relationships, I don’t drift in and out of any “scene” as I fancy (being a stage tech in a queer bar, I’m here every week) and I’ve been on the front line of the fight for equality and against bigotry since I turned 18.

    Still, I am bisexual. Some commenters on this thread -and you know damn well who you are – are leaning too much on stereotypes. Given as the LGBT community is marred by stereotypes and how we’re constantly fighting the media against negative stereotypes, I have to say I expect better.

  236. Kim says:

    Alexis your response is laughable and stereotypical. A user is a user regardless of sexuality. My experience of bisexual women has only been positive, therefore i have ‘learned’ to base my opinions on fact and not hearsay or rumour!

  237. liesel says:

    i identify as bi but i sometimes feel hypocritical when calling myself part of the GLBT community because its like bi people are invisible. so when people ask i just say i’m queer or a lesbian. its easier. fortunately, me and my girlf didn’t have to have “the talk” cuz she’s also bi.

  238. Biwomen and Proud says:

    Wow, such hostility towards bi-sexual women and if man wants to make a point he gets yelled out.
    I guess we’re back in high school and not grown adults.
    The great thing about being a bi-sexual woman is that I appreciate everyone and love everyone.
    I won’t apologize if your girl friend thinks I’m hot, because she can’t tell the difference of who I am.

  239. lady r.e.d says:

    Rarse… Can’t believe th h8 jeeeezee!! God put us here to be our own person & we shud be loved regardless of our sexuality if its Lesbian,Bi but @ th same time respect others. Its 2011 people need to stop stereotyping & all dat bull shizz u jus dress n gwarn how you want to what ever makes u comftable goes :) people need to adapt to diferences we are all the same & we breathe the same air. Hope people can realise there is no limit to what you want to do & be just be happy live life how you want to cause you only live once!!

  240. J says:

    I don’t care what anyone says. I am a gold star lesbian. I STILL don’t like, wouldn’t date, nor accept “bisexuals”, and I never will.

  241. K says:

    And i bet you wear your dungarees with pride lmao

  242. Bella says:

    I hope you realise, J, that you have likely thus limited yourself to only lesbians who share your views – a slim number indeed. I fear that your future will either be lonely or filled with bitterness.

  243. Bella says:

    Also, this comment thread has vaguely made me consider life as a hermit.

  244. Rory says:

    Lesbians admire Gold Stars for a reason! Being true to ourselves and proud of the minority we are.

    I dont give a damn about men, patriarchy or appeasing them;-)

    Good for you J & all like her won’t have to wonder if her girlfriend has some nasty disease, picked up from her former boyfriend..

  245. Boi Fox says:

    I’m gay but I love bisexual women. And straight women. And gay women. Anything in a skirt with a pulse really.

    In all seriousness though, I hear bi bashing all the time, whether it be in forums or in clubs and I think we all just need to stop judging and start appreciating.

    Surely there’s more than enough hate in the world to go around without actually adding to it within our own community.

  246. Edmond says:

    Happy to have found this site, please can anyone direct me to a place where i can really explain my situation on how i have been badly torture and treated like a wild animal, just because am a gay.i know its a taboo in many west African societies, but not a taboo to my emotions, please am desperate to share my ills and ready to explain to anyone who`s ears are open. am now in Johannesburg, Please i really want help……..

  247. stacie says:

    i don’t have anything against bi people, but i’d never date any. simply because i would not feel comfortable that my partner was with men before me and that it will probably be with men after me.

  248. Bella says:

    @Rory: I don’t admire ‘Gold Stars’. In fact, if someone bragged to me about being a ‘Gold Star lesbian’, I’d be put off them rather quickly. Excluding people isn’t a sign of pride, it’s a sign of bigotry.

  249. Natasha says:

    Why do people say that bi guys are really gay and bi girls are really straight? both therefore really into men. I’m not about to start man hating but seems bizarre that men define bi sexuality, well if you believe the stereotypes.
    I’m a bi female and I like guys and girls for utterly different reasons, i wouldnt go out with a bi-curious girl though and as am 19 there’s way too many experimenters. Someone who definitely identified as bisexual (and were cool with monogamy) would be great :) just my 2 pennies

  250. Jes says:

    Stereotypes are dangerous things and I feel offended as a bisexual woman to be excluded and rendered invisible by the wider queer community on the basis that it is ‘assumed’ I’m not serious about my girlfriend and eventually I will leave her for a man.

    For a group of people who have faced such persecution, believing so strongly in stereotypes against their fellow queers would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad.

    In my personal experience I have been in love with both men and women and I’m attracted to both men and women – that’s what makes me bisexual, it’s not the sex, it’s the duality of attraction. I’m not limited by someone’s gender when I’m attracted to someone, that is what bisexuality is.

    The assumption that bisexual women see other women as for ‘fun’ and men for ‘serious’ relationships is wholly inaccurate, not just in my case, but in the situations of other bisexual friends. If you’re looking for fun, you’re looking for fun, if you’re looking for something more you’ll seek that; perhaps this requires the decency of spelling out what you want at the beginning of a relationship, but shouldn’t this happen anyway, as a courtesy? It’s certainly not limited to bisexual people to keep their parners hanging over whether they want to stay casual or take it a step further, there are people who will use you regardless of orientation.

    Give bisexual women a break. Just because you can’t stand the thought that she might have been with a man before, doesn’t mean that she’s a worthless being and she has no right to be attracted to you, never mind love you and want to spend the rest of her life with you.

    I’ve never slept around and I’ve preferred serious relationships to messing around, I’ve loved men, I’ve loved women, but regardless of gender or physical sex, I have been unwaveringly loyal and loving to my partner. If I’m with a woman I’m not eyeing up the next man and if I’m with a man I’m not eyeing up the next girl. I’m not the only bisexual woman out there who is loyal and exclusive.

  251. Nsolonkambwe says:

    see the confusion. now u even want to start up a culture and then what? see even when most homos are being interviewed why do they always ask to keep their details confidential coz u know what u are doing is not right. actually i liked the guyz called kim in l word coz he chased that litlle beach of his after find her makin love to another women. that is the only part i liked in that movie coz that stuff is really wrongm i was even surprised when that girl saw the other lady’s face when making love with kim

  252. rory says:

    Nsolonkambwe, gay, intersex, sexual fluidity is found in nature. It’s perfectly natural and normal. So genius it’s just your opinion &, keep it to yourself. No one cares what you think.

    I have to hand it to you, with your juvenile remarks; you are the post boy for the joys of Lesbianism!

  253. Gyneia says:

    What a load’o b*llocks!
    Lesbians don’t “hate” bi women anymore than frogs “hate” snakes… we just avoid them because all too often they bring luggage or are – as one writes here “ater a bit of naughty fun” . She also needs to belittle our search for life partners by calling it “looking for lurve” sorry? That’s not a word, I think you’ll find girly!
    It’s so boooooooring! We don’t care what bisexual womn and their friends and partners get up to, nothing to do with most of us… But I can tell you that i is not unusual for them to try and ‘slip’ their b/f into their bed, when you’re not looking so… thanks, but no thanks, when I kiss a girl I don’t want to have to wonder what she’s been sucking that morning! EEEEUK!

  254. Gyneia says:

    PS Anyone that calls me a “homo” to my face and I’ll rearrange your features!

    And Lady r.e.d. who the buck is this “gawd” you blither about? never met the dude,!

    Well said Alexis!

    Sunset… WEHEY! byeee! Don’t let the door of sanctimoniuous cr*ap hit you on the way out!

  255. Jess says:

    I have read this article following a night out at my local gay bar with some friends and fully picked up on the biphobia just because I identified myself.
    I am bisexual and I am lovingly and faithfully married to a man. Yet, I have also loved a woman in the past, just as much as anyone can love a person. When I describe myself as being bisexual (and this is how I explained it to my husband when I first met him) what I mean is that I don’t care what the person has between their legs if I am attracted to them. And I can be attracted to them on all possible levels-mentally, physically and sexually. I will look at an attractive looking women the same as an attractive looking man and yet being bisexual does not make me unfaithful or untrustworthy. I have never ever cheated on any of my previous partners and I will also always be faithful and loving to my soul-mate.
    I don’t choose to be the way I am, just like you don’t choose they way you are. If I fall for someone its just like anyone else falls for a person, I just don’t have an issue with their gender or sex. I won’t rule them out because their genitals may look funny. I have seen some pretty ordinary looking vag’s just along with some funny looking penises. If you were gay and your partner was burnt in a fire would you reject them because they didn’t LOOK like a man or a woman anymore? If you would then you are just shallow and superficial.
    The thing that hurts and confuses me the most is when Lesbians say I don’t have any respect for bi-women. I don’t accept them. When homosexuals have struggled so much to be identified and accepted to say something like this is just hypocritical and bigoted. Ironically coming from a minority group the most support I have had since coming out to my family and friends are actually from straight people and they DO NOT see it as a phase or an experiment. They see that I have the capacity to love and respect someone for WHO they are, not WHAT they are.

  256. Kelly says:

    Lesbians: Stop assuming that bisexuals are promiscuous–one’s orientation has nothing to do with fidelity.

    Bisexuals: Stop assuming superiority because you don’t ‘discriminate’ when it comes to sex/gender. No one can choose who one is attracted to–you either are or you aren’t attracted to whoever.

    Good gravy, people. Get over yourselves.

  257. Sunset says:

    Gyneia – Hey homo, I’m not bisexual. I was just pointing out an obvious fact. But, don’t let that get in the way, continue your infantile rants, please – I think they more or less back up my points.

    You’re very tough and scary on the internet, after all, right? Are you going to threaten to “rearrange [my] features” now? What, are you 12?

  258. Bella says:

    There’s no need for offensive language.

  259. Anonymous says:

    It’s because lesbians are catty bitches, and obsessed with their victim complex.

  260. Jane Doe says:

    Thanks to bisexuals, we have:

    1) Spread of STDs/STIs to an otherwise STD/STI-free population, lesbians.

    2) Support of the “ex-gay” movement, since many bisexuals insist on calling themselves gay and then jump into bed and marriages with the opposite sex, giving the “ex-gay” movement support that orientation changes

    3) A weaker gay rights (note: NOT “LGBT” rights) movement overall, since they don’t really contribute anything and run off as soon as they find someone to take on a hetero life with.

  261. jh says:

    live and let live

  262. Sugar says:

    Frankly, while reading some of these comments I started to think; at what point does one who advocates the rights of people regardless of their sexuality think it’s alright to grate on someone because of it? Everyone has rights, gay, straight, bisexual, transgender, black, white, skinny, fat, etc. We’re all human.

    I’m bisexual, I was made that way. I spent years trying to hide it, and I’ve still not came out to my family. I guess then you can say that I am still afraid of people’s reactions to who I am. So what do I do; do I only talk to straight people or these “gold stars” who hate me just as much as each other? Wow guys, talk about being a hypocrite. This is by far aimed at the majority, I know plenty of lovely people from every community who are very supportive of me.

    As for those who are not supportive and want to tar me with the greedy brush because I can fall in love with either sex just as easily – shame on you. You spent years bitching and complaining that people needed to open their eyes to your suffering. We understood you, and a lot of people embraced you. I know the world isn’t perfect, I know there are still hate crimes, homophobia, ignorance, but by indulging in “biphobia” are you not becoming what you always said you hated most?

    My ability to fall in love with either sex is not a crime. I’m a humanitarian – I’ll love you for who you are regardless, and I’ll always fight for your rights. I’m not a sleazy cheater with no respect for people’s feelings who just wants to get my own way with whomever I want. I’ve been burned by that and so have you. Point is, I’m not bitter, and I’m not going to narrow down my vision just because a few people are assholes.

    Every community has at least one asshole. Shame on some of you for proving that.

    Open your minds and hearts – this world would be so much better that way.

  263. Sugar says:

    Let me just clear up a mistake I made.

    “This is by far aimed at the majority, I know plenty of lovely people from every community who are very supportive of me.”

    Should be,

    “This is not by far aimed at the majority, I know plenty of lovely people from every community who are very supportive of me.”

  264. alexei says:

    Bisexuals are a flight risk and they’re so not worth the drama. I’d much rather spend my time with a woman who actually desires to spend her life with a woman. What would a lesbian GAIN from dating a bisexual, besides a heaping case of herpes and a broken heart? Bisexuals don’t really “like” women the way lesbians do. The only thing bisexuals really want from women is a roll in the hay. As soon as thats done and over with, they hop fence and right onto the nearest penis they can find. Ugh!

  265. Lucy says:

    As a woman who loves women I could never love someone who was so fully ignorant to believe that sexuality is entirely to do with physical needs. Sexuality is a drive that effects the soul heart and body. My soulful connections in life are with women yet I am a mother and enjoy the lives men live, their fights and endeavour as a gender.

    It took a long time for me to realise I was gay despite having gay friends because of my sporadic attractions for men. The attractions to men fulfil roles that I require to have my needs met and are not necessarily sexual. To presume we can go through life and not interact and love our fellow humans is utter ignorance.

    I think the place of identity is important to everyone, a way of excepting themselves in the world. If a woman left me for a man I would never believe she had gone to get something I couldn’t provide. I would just consider than the soul was restless. There would be pain and hurt but how can you devalue a connection to a fellow human being? I would be happy to have had a place in her journey but we all most go forward in our own lives. I think it is a lack of emotional awareness to want to be with someone when the interaction and relationship are not fulfilling to both involved. I have learnt that the pain and hurt is equal with men and women but their genitals and life path have nothing to do with it. It is mutual respect and communication that are key to building anything of value and I think there are problems long before the ‘Bi’ girl leaves for a man. The bisexuality isn’t the sum of the break up of a relationship, dynamics are so much more complex. I think it is an easy way to avoid responsibility for your own emotional happiness.

    I would say I was a Lesbian who came to that knowledge later in life due to other emotional problems and eating disorders than suppressed my true sexuality. I would say that I related far more to bisexuals because I think we are missing the concept that you date and love people not their physical representation and their social and economic positions in society.

    Many of these replies sadden me. This is a world my soul has longed to be a part of. I fear meeting people due to lack of validation of lesbianism in my sexual past. I never really believed I was a lesbian because my attractions were so deeply emotional I never contemplated sex with women because as someone who was attracted to men and living in a patriarchal society didn‘t really consider it an option. It isn’t just about participating in sexual relationships it is who you soulfully want to share you life with. Sex is great and casual relationships shouldn’t be under valued if that is what you want at the time and you and your partner are comfortable with what you have decided between yourselves respectfully.

    Love comes in many forms and guises. Each teaching us something; some love isn’t about longevity but the moment the key is recognising what it is and no deluding ourselves it is something it is not.

    We should respect each other.

  266. Lisa A. says:

    @ Jane Doe

    Please don’t make ignorant comments about bisexauls just because you got hurt by a few. Not all bisexauls have STIs/STDs and Not all lesbian are STI/STD free. It is like saying all lesbians sleep around and whore around with different women everyay because they are women and can’t pregnant.
    Some of you lesbians are hypocrite you say you can’t go out with a bisexaul woman because you cannot handle the fact that they are attracted to men, but many of you wouldn’t mind find going after a straight woman because she is normal and or pretty. Some of these hypocrite lesbian go as far as to try to convince these straight women that they are bisexual in order to get them to sleep with you lesbians. Some of these straight women with their golden twats have STI/STDs go figure. So come off that high horse of yours please please. I am talking to you miss high and mighty Jane Doe.

  267. me says:

    I hate biphobia. It’s no better than homophobia, and lesbians know that homophobia is not nice! There is simply no need for it, it’s just ignorant. People in the LGBT community should stick together. I wouldn’t hate someone just because of their sexuality, no one should.

  268. reese says:

    Bisexuals don’t belong in the gay and lesbian community. They use our community as their playground then once playtime is over they jump across to the otherside for the long haul. Honestly, what kind of outcome would a lesbian have dating a bisexual? We all know bi’s can’t live without MEN, so why do they even attempt to date women? Just stick with men.

  269. kim says:

    Gay, straight, lesbian, bi, queer, ace or anywhere in between, you fall in love with someone because you are wholly, viscerally attracted to him or her, whatever ‘attraction’ means to you. Like several have said earlier, you don’t wake up one day and think to yourself, ‘I think I’ll date a man today. That way my life will be so much easier!’ Anyone who thinks that suppressing same-sex attraction is an easier way to live has clearly never had to live that way.

    Along the ‘bisexual-identified people have the freedom to choose to be straight and have the full benefit afforded by mainstream society’ line of thought, that is no more true of bi- or pansexuals than of their gay and lesbian counterparts in that there’s no real choice. Anyone, no matter his or her orientation, has the option to live as a straight person. Just as I doubt anyone on this board would recommend this option to a lesbian or gay man, I doubt as strongly that bisexual people would choose to marry for the same convenience. If you’re marrying for love, there is no choice.

    I am a queer woman with attractions to both men and women. I am as monogamous and faithful as they get, and have been in a committed relationship with a woman for over a year now (and, for the record, she is a self-identified lesbian). I live in the southeastern US, home of the brunt of anti-gay sentiment here; I have no legal protection and, in fact, was evicted from my last apartment because it is illegal in my state to cohabitate with a member of the same sex. When our landlady found out we were together, despite my having lived there and paid all rent, dues, fees, and the like for two years, she gave us less than a week to find somewhere else to live. But like any of the relationship-minded lesbians complaining about bisexuals who can’t make up their mind, I wouldn’t give up who I love to gain legal standing. How does that make me any different from you? (Of course this is to say nothing of non-marriage relationships at all. Nothing wrong with that; do what makes you happy. I’ve just noticed that the majority of the anti-bisexual attacks on this thread are based on the assumption of long-term commitment.)

    It’s disheartening to have campaigned actively with LGBTQA groups for our rights–ALL of our rights–just to see bisexuals’ contributions belittled. I’ve seen it happen countless times even among my activist colleagues. Just like our straight allies, we are marginalized to the point of questioning our own involvement in queer politics. How’s that for ‘diluting the movement?’

  270. amy says:

    Hey Kim, claiming that bisexuals don’t have priviledge is laughable. Sure gays and lesbians can LIE and marry someone of the opposite sex but that would be ridiculous considering they’d be completely unhappy and living a lie. Bisexuals can and most often DO fall for people of the opposite sex therefore their situation wouldn’t be one of continuous misery. Your reasoning and logic make absolutely no sense. Bisexuals often DO marry people of the opposite gender because it’s easy. Bisexuals simply cannot be trusted in GAY relationships.

  271. Liam says:

    I’m pretty disgusted by a lot of the blatant biphobia I’ve read in these comments – and I’m not talking about people not wanting to have sex with a woman who might have ever had sex with a man. I’m talking about all the frankly ridiculous generalisations people are making here about bi women – like any group of people they aren’t all the same and they each deserve to be assessed on their own merits.

    I’ve known bi women who are more attracted to men and in long term relationships with men work tirelessly for the LGBT community and I’ve seen bi women most attracted to and in relationships with women just shrug and say that LGBT rights have nothing to do with them. I’ve known bi people who are polyamorous, who are monogamous or are cheats – and gay and straight people just the same. I know lesbians with stds and bi people who’ve never got one.

    What I have seen pretty consistently is bi people being put down or shut out. Told to pick sides. Called disgusting. I’ve seen bi people dumped by lesbians and gay men and straight people. I’ve caught myself wondering time and again why exactly we (bi people) keep coming back to the LGbt community when that community sometimes seems to be trying to push us out. Why do we keep coming back and keep fighting for LGBT equality and keep falling in love with queer people? Because we’re queer too and just like you we want to be able to acknowledge and express the whole of our identity freely. If you want to complain about bi people “doing nothing” to help “gay rights” start by making it easier for us to fight alongside you. If the world we lived in wasn’t homophobic then there’d be more bi people refusing to be passed as straight because they wouldn’t fear losing partners by working for LGBT rights. If the LGbt community was less hostile to bi people we wouldn’t be in the situation where some bi people *do* find that it’s easier to ignore the LGbt community even if that’s not what they want to do.

    On another note, not enough people have pointed this out. Some women have penises and some men have vaginas. It’s really hurtful that so many of the commenters above seem to want to say they’re attracted to women who love women when they really mean they’re attracted to only women with vaginas who love women with vaginas. I am a trans man and I know and love many trans people, please consider what you’re saying when you equate “person who has a penis” with “man” because for lots of people that isn’t true.

  272. Wirerose says:

    I’m sixteen years old; and have known of my bisexual orientation for sometime. I have on many occasions found comments such as these crushingly discouraging, I’ve questioned time and time again whether I want to support a community that practices such exclusion and am forced to remind myself that there are prejudiced individuals in every sect and in every community regardless of what it is. Frankly; you may as a community be losing supporters before you even acquire them.
    For the record I’ve never cheated on anyone or done any of those things that relating to the negative comments that have been made, partly because of my so far limited life span and partly because of my individual values and ideals that have nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Sexual orientation as you all know is simply one dimension, one element of the whole and so how can you define the whole head as it were using one single strand of hair.

    Here are a few terms to look up; Frequency Heuristics, Confirmation Bias and The Fundamental Attribution Error.

    Flawed thinking is damaging, both to individuals who have lives and feelings of their own and to your cause.

  273. rory says:

    Bi’s & Trans people can view gender to be: performance, descriptive, unimportant.

    Lesbians & Gay people view gender as: physical, erotic, defining.

    I’m a lesbian, I can sympathize and appreciate Liam’s pov & bi folk but my sexuality hinges on physical gender. 99% of the lesbians I know are like this.

    We have different viewpoints and different needs. Let’s agree to disagree. For everyone’s happiness and peace of mind: lesbians should stick to lesbians & genderqueer people should date fellow genderqueers. Problem solved.

  274. Rachel says:

    Amy, why do there have to be “gay” and “straight” relationships? Why can’t relationships just be relationships?

    People are people, and people love who they love. It’s not a contest — it’s not a woman versus man thing. There is no competition, no reward for new recruits, and no punishment for purported losses.

    I have been used as an experiment of sorts and I know how painful it to lose someone you care about. I blamed my loss on her cowardice — she couldn’t come out, couldn’t live openly, was afraid to be a lesbian. I blamed it on her relationship with a man — she chose him because it was easy, convenient, socially acceptable. I made excuse after excuse. The truth is, we didn’t work not because she loved men too much, but because she didn’t love me enough. And that’s okay.

    It seems to me that all of the biphobia stems from the same place as homophobia: fear. We fear the invalidation of our relationships. We fear that we may be left because of something over which we have no control. We fear that our partners are using us or that they aren’t sincere in their attraction. I understand that. I’ve dealt with that. But that doesn’t make it okay. Is it okay for men to be homophobic because they are afraid that we’ll convert their women? Why is it any different when it comes to lesbians and bisexual women?

    I am a lesbian in a relationship with a woman who is attracted to both men and women. I have never had a more loyal or faithful partner and I don’t doubt for a moment her attraction to me or her commitment to our relationship and to the life we’re building. Our relationship is just that: a relationship. And I trust her completely, not simply because she likes wome, but because she merits my trust.

    She is an activist for LGBTQ rights and has been for years. I, by contrast, have only recently begun to speak out. She is involved in multiple queer organizations, has served on the executive board of her college’s queer group, and she owns a plaid flannel shirt. We have three cats. She is every bit as queer and as deserving of a place in the community as anyone here. The fact that she is attracted to men as well as women shouldn’t change that.

    We preach all the time that love is love. We rally and shout and scream to the Tea Partiers and the Mormons and anyone else who tells us that our love is not equal, not the same, not good enough. Why don’t we listen to the words that we shout? Love is love. Everyone deserves it. End of story.

  275. Carolyn says:

    Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like we already have to deal with homophobic people. Let’s not turn within the LGBT community and have even more prejudices. Biphobia is just as bad as homophobia, and damaging to our community. A house divided will fall.

  276. jordan says:

    Bisexuals use women.Plain and simple. Most of them have bf’s or a husband and with his permission, the bisexual will seek out a woman to use for sex. Once the bisexual has gotten her fill, she dumps the woman and heads back to her man. Smart lesbians avoid man-f*ckers at all costs.

  277. me_too says:

    Bisexuals don’t handle the truth well. Makes me think they have mental problems.

    That’s why I stay away from dating bisexuals and “straight” girls. I’d prefer not to date someone disease-ridden who runs off the suck and jump on every cock she sees. GROSS. Most lesbians know better. Those that don’t really learn the hard way, by being dumped and/or picking up something nasty.

  278. Laura says:

    I don’t hate bisexuals. I just know better than to date them. I’m just protecting myself in doing so, and everyone has that right.Why don’t bisexuals just date each other? That would pretty much solve the problems here. Then can talk how much they love dicks, how open-minded they think they are and so on.

  279. Jennifer says:

    Because women(gay or straight)don’t want to date people who sleep with men.Everytime a (straight)male comes on to me,I feel like throwing up and taking a shower.I even threw up on the carpet when I had to share a motel room with my mother and step-father.They thought that I wasn’t feeling well.But it was because I waws in a motel room with two straight people lying in a bed beside me.

  280. Jaxa says:

    Hmm. Jennifer, I think that says more about your issues with straight people than the actual topic. Being physically sick? Really? For sleeping in the same room as the woman who had to have hetero sex in order to conceive you?

    Clearly some women (straight and bi) have no problems dating men. Only lesbian women don’t want to date men, and that’s perfectly fine! No one’s asking you to, but dating a bisexual woman is in no way the same as dating a man.

    No one’s forcing anyone to date anyone else. I’m in love with my girlfriend, but I have had one boyfriend in the past – he was a lovely guy and we’re still friends. Before you ask, no, I have never had an STI. My girlfriend was nervous initially that I had been with a man before, but now (5 years on) it’s nothing. She’s secure in my love for her – 5 years together has more than proven that commitment.

  281. Belladonna Shade says:

    I would like to say a few things as a bisexual woman, having experienced both bad heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

    I have only had one girlfriend and two boyfriends in my life, I will start with the girlfriend, or two- faced, lying whore as I think of her. I was sixteen when we met and got together, and initially everything was perfect and genuinely thought I loved her. I was honest with K from the start that I was Bi, but it didn’t matter who I was with, I would be faithful to her and to anyone I happened to be with.

    now K was a self proclaimed ‘dyke’ but was ‘willing to give me a go’ even now I don’t know why I didn’t just tell her to stick that comment where the sun doesn’t shine, anyway… the long and short of it is that she ended up ‘pregnant’ (no I do not believe this for a minute)had a miscarriage and promptly dumped me because it was ‘all my fault’ er.. WTF? I’m female just to reiterate!

    I found out, a few years later, after making a go of two hetro relationships, that K was on drugs at the time of our relationship, and would willing and enthusiastically fuck her dealer turned pimp. The only reason she dumped me was so she had more time for drugs and the ‘horrible, nasty men’ that she abhorred, funny no?

    I apologise if that came out bitter and twisted.

    as to my hetro relationships, one ended on semi amicable terms (uni started and he was moving away). the other still haunts me, as I was turned black and blue repeatedly by this man, well for basically being a woman.

    The point I am trying to make is that I have started getting over the last relationship, which happened 3 years ago, and thought that as I am currently attracted to women I would give places and forums ago just to test the waters a bit…

    but if this is the shit I am to expect from lesbians, then I think I’ll head to the nearest convent and never enter society again.

    I’m just wondering why the hell I’m actually bothering in the first place.

    Sayonara

    Belladonna S

  282. Corrin says:

    Well Belladonna,Bisexuals bring this shit on themselves. Lesbians didn’t initially hate bisexuals just to hate them. Bisexuals have a bad wrap within the lesbian community, and for the longest time we (lesbians) have just dealt with bisexuals and their bullshit. We’re tired of it now. We no longer desire to have those with one foot in and the other foot out. My suggestion is that bisexuals just leave us alone and stick to men. That’s where they all end up anyway.

  283. Vicky says:

    “I dont think lesbians hate Bi’s i think lesbians who want a relationship dont like people who use them as experiments.”. I agree w u. I don’t wanta b some womans experiment! Either u c us attractive or not….end of story

  284. Laura says:

    Like Corrin and others have suggested, “bisexual” women would be far better off just dating men, and leave alone those of us who actually want to have real relationships with other women.

  285. Kim says:

    Bisexual women are far better looking than most lesbians. They also have better personal hygiene habits. I’m a femme lesbian and i prefer a woman to look and feel like a woman not a wannabe unwashed hairy teenage boy!!

  286. Laura says:

    Until you get something nasty from her, Kim.Your “better hygiene ” bi woman has also had, on average, a dozen or so d*icks between her legs and in her mouth. Gross.

  287. Alice says:

    People just love to build hierarchies, don’t they.
    Even while trying to abolish the still-unfortunately-present heterosexual-homosexual hierarchy, hierarchies are being built within the LGBTQ community.
    It never stops.
    Hierarchies within lesbians.
    Hierarchies within schools.
    Hierarchies within fucking water polo clubs.
    Because really, it makes perfect sense to give grief as a lesbian to someone because they are DIFFERENT from you, right?
    GOOD IDEA.

  288. marnie says:

    Quite frankly, i’m convinced that bisexuals HATE women. They seem to worship men. Smart lesbians want nothing to do with bisexuals.

  289. Kim says:

    Haha im just being controversial i couldn’t give a rats a*se women are women and this debate is very very old! ;)

  290. Laura says:

    True. I”m just telling it like it is. I don’t believe in sugar-coating stuff.

  291. Geri says:

    As there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Sappho of Lesbos was an exclusively homosexual woman and there is evidence indicating she was probably a bisexual woman why would an exclusively homosexual woman who hates bisexual women even want to call herself a lesbian?

    Surely being lesbian is about what you are and who you can love? Not about who you cannot love – let alone who you hate?

  292. Nancy says:

    Wtf are you talking about Geri????

  293. Jamie says:

    Bisexuals are harmful to lesbians and lesbian visibility. Bisexuals need to stick to their own and quit treating lesbians like toys.

  294. B.I.D says:

    Stuff lesbians will like: B.I.D (Behaviour, Identity, Desire) Magazine is a lifestyle magazine for lesbian and bisexual women. B.I.D operates a blog (b-i-d-magazine.tumblr.com) and is releasing it’s first issue in the coming months. We are looking for new writers, so wherever you are in the world, if you think you have something interesting to offer, send us an email at magazine.bid@gmail.com.

  295. Elizalovah says:

    Ok, I’m a lesbian,but all the bi hate from you guys is just sad. Last time I checked, we were all fighting for lgbt rights. The b is in there for a reason. If there’s so much bi hatred here, how the fuck can we lesbians demand tolerance and acceptance from the straight community without being total hypocrites? Sheesh… So much for NOH8.

  296. rory says:

    I have exactly the same rights to state I don’t want to date a bisexual woman as a man.
    I prefer woman who love exclusively woman, who are interested in women’s issues & live outside the mainstream man-obsessed culture!

    that’s not hate, that’s a choice. Lesbians have lots of issues with bi women & it’s smart to just avoid them.
    Bi women have straight men, bi men, bi women, straight women to date. That’s plenty.

  297. Geri says:

    @rory

    who says: “I have exactly the same rights to state I don’t want to date a bisexual woman as a man.”

    Of course you have that right. But you have absolutely no right at all to tell a gay woman she shouldn’t date a bi woman – or tell her she is stupid or unwise to do so.

    And you didn’t rely mean to suggest that only exclusively homosexual women are interested in women’s issues did you?

  298. Laura says:

    People aren’t kidding when they point out that bisexuals are an STD risk: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4365/is_14_41/ai_n29455577/

    Bisexuals can do whatever they want (and, it seems, do most whoever they want). But, no lesbian us under any obligation to be involved with them. And it’s perfectly fair to point out to a friend who’s making a mistake and getting involved with someone who will probably hurt in more ways than one.

  299. Geri says:

    @Laura

    Some interesting stats and conclusions in that article http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4365/is_14_41/ai_n29455577/ Laura

    Like: ‘ the study also found that lesbian students were significantly less likely than either heterosexual or bisexual students to have had a routine gynecologic exam during the past year. While 73% of heterosexual women and 67% of bisexual women had an exam, only 46% of lesbian women did. “Therefore, it’s likely that more lesbian women have an STD but don’t know it,” Dr. Lindley said. ‘ Evidence that many lesbians don’t take care of their health.

    And: ‘The analysis also pointed up an interesting dichotomy between the women’s self-proclaimed sexual orientation and their actual sexual behaviors, Dr. Lindley noted. For example, 5% of women who self-identified as lesbians reported having only male sexual contacts in the past year, and 10% of lesbians reported having sex partners of both genders. Among bisexual women, 56% reported sexual contact with only men in the past year, and 10% reported sexual contact with only women; 35% of these women had sex with both men and women in the studied year.’

    No one who engages in sexual activity with other people can afford to be complacent about STDs. And that includes lesbian identified women who only date other lesbian identified women.

  300. Laura says:

    Yes, there is a big problem of bi women calling themselves lesbians and eroding our identity. Not surprised about thedoctor visits, some people just don’t remember learn. But none of that changes thecentral finding. Ew.

  301. Bex says:

    I just can’t believe what I’m reading from some of you. I’m a lesbian who’s never done anything with a man and my beautiful amazing girlfriend of several years is bi and I’m the first woman she’s been in a relationship with. It is no different to when i was with other ‘exclusively lesbian’ women. Well, it’s better, she wears cute little summer dresses and skirts in summer ;-)

    Yes, it’s not nice to be used as an experiment and people need to consider that, but that doesn’t mean that everyone’s going to do that. Women who are really bisexual and not curious are just that bi, they are attracted to both, ie. women as well.

    Belladonna and other bi women on here we’re not all like many of these hateful people, also all the lesbians I know are the same as me. It’s about the person, not their sexuality, they just need t be attracted to women, obviously.

  302. Mina says:

    I hate being bi-sexual. I’ve had to hide it from both men and women that I’ve dated, and I’ve always felt like it was my dirty secret. If I identified as gay or straight, I would be able to belong to a community… but as a bisexual, I’m something of a joke. Neither side believes it’s really true. What kills me is that I’m more faithful than numerous gays and straights that I know; there’s no cheating here, unlike the stereotype.

    It makes me very, very jealous of people who can identify as straight or gay. They’re very lucky.

  303. Mina says:

    For all of you angry lesbians out there, thanks for making the real bisexuals feel like crap. I hate what I am, and I wish I were either gay or straight. And no, you can’t make yourself one or the other; surely you know that. If you think that our feeling for the same sex aren’t genuine, then you are missing out on a lot of amazing people.

    For me personally, it’s not about whether you have a dick or a vag, it’s who you are. Forgive me for loving the person for who they are, rather than what they were born with.

  304. Mina says:

    And Bex- I accidentally deleted my first post, but it was almost word for word with yours. High five, girl.

  305. Jess says:

    @ Bex, Gurl you will unfortunately learn the hard way. How sure are you that your bisexual gf isn’t fucking some guy? Newsflash, bisexuals can’t live without MEN. Do yourself a favor and get rid of her. As for all the other lesbians you know, they too will sadly learn the hard way. Bisexuals and lesbians don’t belong together. Lesbians always get the short end of the stick when it comes to the bisexuals. Leave them to the men.

  306. Bex says:

    Mina, as far as I’m concerned, u r more LGBTQ family than any of the bigoted ‘lesbians’ spouting their biphobia on here. Please try not to take the crap on here to heart, u’ll meet someone open enough to live u for who u are, such people do exist, i know plenty.

    Yes, Jess I’m 110+% sure my gf isn’t into ‘some guy’ or anyone behind my back. It’s called trust, part of any functional relationship. My ex, (‘gold star’ lesbian), though, decided to see another women for 3 months b4 deciding it might be an idea to end it with me… I think I’ll take my chances. I also know of many long term couples where one is bi and the other not.

  307. tina says:

    Oh Bex… I didn’t know such naive people still existed. Come back and tell us when your girl runs off with a guy. We’ll be here to tell you “I told you so”.

  308. Rean says:

    “Biphobia” my ass. Just because myself a other lesbians aren’t into being used doesn’t mean we hate them. I’m just not stupid enough to put myself in a situation doomed to failure from the get go.Bisexuals need to stay out of the LESBIAN community.

  309. Angie says:

    Bisexuals are useless to the lesbian community. They all marry men and pop out babies while having gf’s they “play with” on the side..with “hubby’s” permission of course. No thank you!

  310. Brittiny says:

    Uh I kinda have to agree with the other lesbians on here. I have never met a bisexual who could
    see themselves with a women, for the rest of there lives. = now I’m only 19 never had a gf so
    it’s not like I have a lot of exprience in this, but the thought of another women liking guys is a real turn off. My friend liked me but I just couldn’t do it, because the thought of her liking guys just botherd me. I want a girl to love every inch of a women like I do….. But who knows what will happen in the future I guess

  311. admin says:

    Hi everyone. After 3 years and over 300 comments we’re now closing the comments on this article.

    Our comments policy at Lesbilicious is that we will allow all viewpoints, even those we don’t agree with – hence the varied and sometimes vitriolic comments above.

    However it’s worth pointing out here that we at Lesbilicious fully support bisexuality. We believe that bisexual women face many of the same problems and prejudices as gay women, plus some problems unique to them too. The purpose of this article was to draw attention to some of those issues, and explore what may cause them.

    Thanks for reading the article.